Brexit

Thing is without an overhaul of the rule around campaigning and what happens to the result in the event it is found someone has cheated the lies would just come back and the same thing happen.

There needs to be clear guidelines about what can and cant be done to ensure claims are provable or whatever and when someone lies actual action is taken not the slap on the wrist the Tories get seemingly after every election that does nothing and doesn't change the result or cause a bi-election.

KK wrote:There was a mandate for a Brexit,

Was there? That depends on your point of view I guess. The Brexit vote won the referendum, I don’t think anybody doubts that.

But, opinions differ wildly as to whether it was won fairly, on whether Parliament should have proceeded with it, whether a second referendum is needed to actually set out what happens next, if a third of the countries voters should decide for everyone else etc etc

I cannot see why a second referendum is such a terrible idea, hammer out the terms of any deal with the EU, get their agreement that it could all be cancelled and then put it to the country with two options:

Option 1: Accept this deal/no deal from the EU and Leave
Option 2: Remain in the EU

In the referendum we had, people were asked to vote on something that most people (on both sides) didn’t understand and had no idea what would actually happen. How is it right to force all this through and not give the people a chance to amend/reject it while also shouting about “will of the people!” “Democracy!”?

Errkal wrote:Thing is without an overhaul of the rule around campaigning and what happens to the result in the event it is found someone has cheated the lies would just come back and the same thing happen.

I agree the rules need to be changed, but I think any second EU referendum would avoid a lot of the bullshit from the first time. A second referendum would be based on things we all actually know, for the Leave side we would all know the terms of the deal reached with the EU or that there was no deal and we would be on WTO rules. The Remain side would be continuing as we have for the last few decades.

Of course there would be bullshit (Boris might get his bus back!) but people are far more informed now than they were a year ago.

Moggy wrote:

Errkal wrote:Thing is without an overhaul of the rule around campaigning and what happens to the result in the event it is found someone has cheated the lies would just come back and the same thing happen.

I agree the rules need to be changed, but I think any second EU referendum would avoid a lot of the bullshit from the first time. A second referendum would be based on things we all actually know, for the Leave side we would all know the terms of the deal reached with the EU or that there was no deal and we would be on WTO rules. The Remain side would be continuing as we have for the last few decades.

Of course there would be bullshit (Boris might get his bus back!) but people are far more informed now than they were a year ago.

Are they though, when ever I see polls of should be continue or stop Brexit they are always bloody close still, and you will have the "hey, lets finished what we started" factor as well as playing on the "we can't let the EU win and us chicken out"

I would like it to happen to see, but I'm not sure it would be as clean cut as people think.

Errkal wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Errkal wrote:Thing is without an overhaul of the rule around campaigning and what happens to the result in the event it is found someone has cheated the lies would just come back and the same thing happen.

I agree the rules need to be changed, but I think any second EU referendum would avoid a lot of the bullshit from the first time. A second referendum would be based on things we all actually know, for the Leave side we would all know the terms of the deal reached with the EU or that there was no deal and we would be on WTO rules. The Remain side would be continuing as we have for the last few decades.

Of course there would be bullshit (Boris might get his bus back!) but people are far more informed now than they were a year ago.

Are they though, when ever I see polls of should be continue or stop Brexit they are always bloody close still, and you will have the "hey, lets finished what we started" factor as well as playing on the "we can't let the EU win and us chicken out"

I would like it to happen to see, but I'm not sure it would be as clean cut as people think.

I’m not saying people have changed their minds or moved to the Remain side. I’m saying the last year has debunked a lot of the bullshit, people are far more aware of what the EU is and that a second referendum could set out exactly what’s on offer and what would happen in each case.

I don’t want to leave, but I’d be far less furious if people voted knowing what they were voting for and with at least a tiny bit of rough understanding of what it all meant.

I find it strange that despite obvious lies and now proven fake articles that both the US Election and the Brexit vote are allowed to stand. It's really really odd.

We denigrate and criticize 'third world 'countries for skewing democracy yet it seems we simply put up with it when it happens on our own door step.

I don't think any election or referendum in history has ever been contested by people that weren't lying.

KK wrote:I don't think any election or referendum in history has ever been contested by people that weren't lying.

There's lying and then there's a strawberry floating great bus with "£350million" written on it.

Squinty wrote:Brexshit continues to impress.

Edit - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 72596.html

LOL.

I'd be happier with that arrangement, but the DUP clearly wouldn't, lol - we did vote to remain and they campaigned to leave though, so I don't think it would be right to just do what the DUP want.

KK wrote:I don't think any election or referendum in history has ever been contested by people that weren't lying.

I can't deny that at all. I do believe that this referendum is very different in comparison to a general election though.

I'm actually surprised if the EU proposal is true. I didn't think they would ever do that. I suppose this is the most optimal solution to the Irish border, it's still gooseberry fool mind you.

Squinty wrote:

KK wrote:I don't think any election or referendum in history has ever been contested by people that weren't lying.

I can't deny that at all. I do believe that this referendum is very different in comparison to a general election though.

Plus we have only ever had 3 national referendums in UK history.

1 on joining the EU
1 on changing the voting system
1 on leaving the EU

I wasn’t around for the first, but I don’t remember hearing about a large number of lies being told. The second was so strawberry floating dull (and for the wrong change in system) that nobody bothered lying. The third was nothing but lies and mistruths.

There was a hint of the Brexit Bus in the AV referendum, wasn't there? I'm sure I saw something like "Why should we spend ten trillion pounds every minute [or whatever made up number] on a new voting system when we could be buying our soldiers body armour???".

That second one on AV was horrible, remember the poster with something like, 'don’t spend £50 million on AV, spend it on saving babies instead'

Edit: yeah what Karl said

Now it has been mentioned, I remember those adverts for the AV referendum.

Nobody wanted AV though so nobody was fussed that it lost. If it had been a PR referendum, then I would have been far more angry (and would have remembered!) the lies.

Karl wrote:There was a hint of the Brexit Bus in the AV referendum, wasn't there? I'm sure I saw something like "Why should we spend ten trillion pounds every minute [or whatever made up number] on a new voting system when we could be buying our soldiers body armour???".

A one off payment of £250 million sounds like a drop in the ocean now compared to the Brexit numbers.

That would only buy you 2.5 DUP MPs or 5 days of extra NHS funding.

It's only £110million more than the snap General Election cost.

Ultimate opportunist Boris Johnson has struck again, this time in tomorrow's Sun, writing a "Leadership Manifesto", featuring 4 "red lines" on Brexit and criticising the minimum wage (too low).

So obvious what he's up to now.

Maggie would have had his bollocks nailed to the front door as a warning to anyone else by now.

KK wrote:Ultimate opportunist Boris Johnson has struck again, this time in tomorrow's Sun, writing a "Leadership Manifesto", featuring 4 "red lines" on Brexit and criticising the minimum wage (too low).

So obvious what he's up to now.

He's gunning for a spot on the top ten list of Britain's Most Reviled Leaders? Since it'd be him who'd oversee Brexit, and take the blame for the inevitably shitty aftermath.

Awfully nice of him to take that bullet.