Brexit

Rocsteady wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Rocsteady wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Rocsteady wrote:It's because that inherently strong economy and power on the world stage weren't translating to improved lives for the majority in the fashion it should have. So people kicked out. In a ridiculous manner.

It was only partially that. There was also a lot of xenophobia and nationalism and other just as ridiculous reasons. And some felt that the EU wasn’t very democratic.

It’s actually a very good reason why the referendum was a bad idea, the result didn’t really tell us anything. 52% (of those that voted) voted to leave the EU. Except, what does that even mean? A Norway model? WTO rules? No EU immigration or no more immigration at all? A bespoke trade deal with the EU? The people that voted for Leave all seem to have expected different things and all seemed to think that their vote meant something different to what other Leave voters thought.

Whatever we end up with, the vast majority of the country are going to be against. It’s a mess.

But why is there so much xenophobia? There's a lot of evidence that it strongly correlates to strength of economy and economic well being.

It’s partially the economy of course, but it is too simplistic to say that people voted out just because they were feeling poor and were blaming foreigners for it.

There has always been an undercurrent of racism and xenophobia in this country whether we are in good times or bad times. The bad times raises that up, but it is always there and will always be there.

If the referendum had been held in the boom years, then I expect that remain would have won, but there would have still been millions and millions of votes to leave. The likes of Farage, The Sun, The Express and The Mail have been talking down the EU for decades.

I don't disagree with any of that.

At the same time I really don't think there's more racism in Britain than anywhere else. In fact, having lived abroad in different countries for years I think Britain is probably the least racist nation I've been in. Or maybe Belgium. Anecdotally, of course.

I agree on racism, every country has its fair share of racist twats. I am not sure I said that Britain was worse than everywhere else.

I think xenophobia is worse here than many other nations though and it has been there for a very long time. There is a general air of superiority in the UK, mainly as a hangover from the days of empire and a weird “we won the war!” mindset that people seem infected with. Brexit was popular amongst a lot of British people, because British people see themselves as being apart from the rest of Europe, we won the war! We had an empire! We started the industrial revolution! We are special!

You see the same sort of attitude amongst Americans. But at least they have the excuse of still being a current world power, not one that faded away decades ago.

Photek wrote:Why are English football fans idiots then?

Don't judge all England fans on how Glowy acts.

Rocsteady wrote:

DML wrote:

Rocsteady wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Rocsteady wrote:It's because that inherently strong economy and power on the world stage weren't translating to improved lives for the majority in the fashion it should have. So people kicked out. In a ridiculous manner.

It was only partially that. There was also a lot of xenophobia and nationalism and other just as ridiculous reasons. And some felt that the EU wasn’t very democratic.

It’s actually a very good reason why the referendum was a bad idea, the result didn’t really tell us anything. 52% (of those that voted) voted to leave the EU. Except, what does that even mean? A Norway model? WTO rules? No EU immigration or no more immigration at all? A bespoke trade deal with the EU? The people that voted for Leave all seem to have expected different things and all seemed to think that their vote meant something different to what other Leave voters thought.

Whatever we end up with, the vast majority of the country are going to be against. It’s a mess.

But why is there so much xenophobia? There's a lot of evidence that it strongly correlates to strength of economy and economic well being.

Why on earth shouldnt the Tories take the blame for that?

What?

Well they are responsible for the strength of the economy and economic wellbeing.

Moggy wrote:

Rocsteady wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Rocsteady wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Rocsteady wrote:It's because that inherently strong economy and power on the world stage weren't translating to improved lives for the majority in the fashion it should have. So people kicked out. In a ridiculous manner.

It was only partially that. There was also a lot of xenophobia and nationalism and other just as ridiculous reasons. And some felt that the EU wasn’t very democratic.

It’s actually a very good reason why the referendum was a bad idea, the result didn’t really tell us anything. 52% (of those that voted) voted to leave the EU. Except, what does that even mean? A Norway model? WTO rules? No EU immigration or no more immigration at all? A bespoke trade deal with the EU? The people that voted for Leave all seem to have expected different things and all seemed to think that their vote meant something different to what other Leave voters thought.

Whatever we end up with, the vast majority of the country are going to be against. It’s a mess.

But why is there so much xenophobia? There's a lot of evidence that it strongly correlates to strength of economy and economic well being.

It’s partially the economy of course, but it is too simplistic to say that people voted out just because they were feeling poor and were blaming foreigners for it.

There has always been an undercurrent of racism and xenophobia in this country whether we are in good times or bad times. The bad times raises that up, but it is always there and will always be there.

If the referendum had been held in the boom years, then I expect that remain would have won, but there would have still been millions and millions of votes to leave. The likes of Farage, The Sun, The Express and The Mail have been talking down the EU for decades.

I don't disagree with any of that.

At the same time I really don't think there's more racism in Britain than anywhere else. In fact, having lived abroad in different countries for years I think Britain is probably the least racist nation I've been in. Or maybe Belgium. Anecdotally, of course.

I agree on racism, every country has its fair share of racist twats. I am not sure I said that Britain was worse than everywhere else.

I think xenophobia is worse here than many other nations though and it has been there for a very long time. There is a general air of superiority in the UK, mainly as a hangover from the days of empire and a weird “we won the war!” mindset that people seem infected with. Brexit was popular amongst a lot of British people, because British people see themselves as being apart from the rest of Europe, we won the war! We had an empire! We started the industrial revolution! We are special!

You see the same sort of attitude amongst Americans. But at least they have the excuse of still being a current world power, not one that faded away decades ago.

Nah you didn't, just wanted to say that as a slight aside. 100% agree about the sense of superiority, that's what drives me strawberry floating mental about some English folk abroad.

DML wrote:

Rocsteady wrote:

DML wrote:

Rocsteady wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Rocsteady wrote:It's because that inherently strong economy and power on the world stage weren't translating to improved lives for the majority in the fashion it should have. So people kicked out. In a ridiculous manner.

It was only partially that. There was also a lot of xenophobia and nationalism and other just as ridiculous reasons. And some felt that the EU wasn’t very democratic.

It’s actually a very good reason why the referendum was a bad idea, the result didn’t really tell us anything. 52% (of those that voted) voted to leave the EU. Except, what does that even mean? A Norway model? WTO rules? No EU immigration or no more immigration at all? A bespoke trade deal with the EU? The people that voted for Leave all seem to have expected different things and all seemed to think that their vote meant something different to what other Leave voters thought.

Whatever we end up with, the vast majority of the country are going to be against. It’s a mess.

But why is there so much xenophobia? There's a lot of evidence that it strongly correlates to strength of economy and economic well being.

Why on earth shouldnt the Tories take the blame for that?

What?

Well they are responsible for the strength of the economy and economic wellbeing.

Nah I get it but I would say that's a totally different debate.

Rocsteady wrote:

DML wrote:

Rocsteady wrote:

DML wrote:

Rocsteady wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Rocsteady wrote:It's because that inherently strong economy and power on the world stage weren't translating to improved lives for the majority in the fashion it should have. So people kicked out. In a ridiculous manner.

It was only partially that. There was also a lot of xenophobia and nationalism and other just as ridiculous reasons. And some felt that the EU wasn’t very democratic.

It’s actually a very good reason why the referendum was a bad idea, the result didn’t really tell us anything. 52% (of those that voted) voted to leave the EU. Except, what does that even mean? A Norway model? WTO rules? No EU immigration or no more immigration at all? A bespoke trade deal with the EU? The people that voted for Leave all seem to have expected different things and all seemed to think that their vote meant something different to what other Leave voters thought.

Whatever we end up with, the vast majority of the country are going to be against. It’s a mess.

But why is there so much xenophobia? There's a lot of evidence that it strongly correlates to strength of economy and economic well being.

Why on earth shouldnt the Tories take the blame for that?

What?

Well they are responsible for the strength of the economy and economic wellbeing.

Nah I get it but I would say that's a totally different debate.

Fair enough.

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jawafour wrote:

Moggy wrote:...There is a general air of superiority in the UK, mainly as a hangover from the days of empire and a weird “we won the war!” mindset that people seem infected with. Brexit was popular amongst a lot of British people, because British people see themselves as being apart from the rest of Europe, we won the war! We had an empire! We started the industrial revolution! We are special!...

I think many people voted to leave the EU because they wanted the UK to be separate from Europe on a political basis, not because of a location or people basis. I'm not sure how many folk would use "we won the war" or "we had an empire" as a reason for leaving the EU; perhaps some did (i.e. ignorant, bigoted racists) but I don't see that as a common feature. Personally I don't see anything wrong with being patriotic about your country. Not in a "we're better than you and you should submit to our rule" type of fascism - obviously - but in a "we are proud of our country but we are open to living and working with others" kind of way.

Its absolutely great to be patriotic of our country, I was very proud during the Olympics for instance, because it showed off how diverse, creative and wonderful our nation is. But the kind of Britain promoted right now is just embarassing, small-minded, petty, backwards. Six years on and the Union Jack actually embarrasses me, its such a shame, but its not going to change until a new wave of optimism sweeps this country in the form of major change. Britain are a big player in a global world, but if they are afraid to take part in it they have no place. Immigration is going to continue unabated regardless, because thats the way the worlds going. Better to embrace it then act like an ostrich and pretend it isn't happening.

jawafour wrote:

Moggy wrote:...There is a general air of superiority in the UK, mainly as a hangover from the days of empire and a weird “we won the war!” mindset that people seem infected with. Brexit was popular amongst a lot of British people, because British people see themselves as being apart from the rest of Europe, we won the war! We had an empire! We started the industrial revolution! We are special!...

I think many people voted to leave the EU because they wanted the UK to be separate from Europe on a political basis, not because of a location or people basis.

I don't think I suggested that those people didn't exist. They are mistaken if they think that a modern country can be separate from others, but I guess they exist.

A lot of them will be xenophobic and/or racist though and will be using "democracy" "sovereignty" and similar things as a front to hide views they know to be wrong.

I'm not sure how many folk would use "we won the war" or "we had an empire" as a reason for leaving the EU; perhaps some did (i.e. ignorant, bigoted racists) but I don't see that as a common feature.

I don’t think I suggested people voted to leave because Britain won the war. I was talking about the general air of superiority that so many Brits seem to have. There is a link to Brexit though, look through any comment section on the EU and your will see plenty of comments of “they’d all be talking German if it wasn’t for us!” and “We saved them before, we might not save them next time”.

It’s an absolute fact that Leave only won because of the support of the xenophobes and racists. That doesn’t mean the majority of Leave voters are, but they only won because of that support. Not all Leave voters are racist, but all racists were Leave voters. I would not be comfortable to be on the same side as that sort of person.

Personally I don't see anything wrong with being patriotic about your country. Not in a "we're better than you and you should submit to our rule" type of fascism - obviously - but in a "we are proud of our country but we are open to living and working with others" kind of way.

I am not sure anybody said there is anything wrong with being proud of their country?

Pushing patriotism always ends up in hatred though.

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Moggy wrote:look through any comment section on the EU and your will see plenty of comments of “they’d all be talking German if it wasn’t for us!”

And now they're all speaking English because of us

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jawafour wrote:

DML wrote:...the Union Jack actually embarrasses me, its such a shame, but its not going to change until a new wave of optimism sweeps this country in the form of major change...

I would suggest to always be proud of a country's flag for what you believe in rather than what others do, DML. See the flag from your own perspective rather than let others shape that view for you. I used to have a feeling of "uh, are these people rascist?" when I saw the Union Jack flying - because ignorant, rascist groups tried to claim it - but now I feel the flag is a sign of being proud of the country, completely separate from the thugs who tried to present a different image.

Other than for sports, it is very rare to find a person or a group flying the flag that isn’t morally questionable.

I don’t hate the Union Flag or the Cross of Saint George, but I can’t say I particularly associate with them anymore. Britain is my home, but I don’t feel like it is the place it was just a few years ago and I don’t see it getting much better. And as people seem to want to divide themselves into smaller and smaller communities, I will just stick with being Bristolian.

Hyperion wrote:

Moggy wrote:look through any comment section on the EU and your will see plenty of comments of “they’d all be talking German if it wasn’t for us!”

And now they're all speaking English because of us

To be fair that's not far off.

jawafour wrote:I think it has to be projected in the correct (i.e. positively) way. People of all countries should be proud of their particular place and work to support and improve it. Any attitudes that promote this positive idea for bad are, of course, completely wrong.

Working to improve it is fine, being “proud” of it is an odd thought though. Unless you have moved here, you are only here through an accident of birth.

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The Union Jack (or just The Union, depending if you want to believe that historical fact) is incredibly well received abroad; from a marketing and art perspective, it's one of the most popular flags in the world. I was in iRooms for example in Italy and there it was adorning a box in the hotel room. It just pops up all over the place.

KK wrote:The Union Jack (or just The Union, depending if you want to believe that historical fact) is incredibly well received abroad; from a marketing and art perspective, it's one of the most popular flags in the world.

So much so, some other countries even include it on their own flags

double post

jawafour wrote:

DML wrote:...the Union Jack actually embarrasses me, its such a shame, but its not going to change until a new wave of optimism sweeps this country in the form of major change...

I would suggest to always be proud of a country's flag for what you believe in rather than what others do, DML. See the flag from your own perspective rather than let others shape that view for you. I used to have a feeling of "uh, are these people rascist?" when I saw the Union Jack flying - because ignorant, rascist groups tried to claim it - but now I feel the flag is a sign of being proud of the country, completely separate from the thugs who tried to present a different image.

I wouldn't have say a Union Jack pillow on my sofa now, because a lot of peoples immediate thought on seeing the flag now is Brexit and I don't want to show support for that nonsense. Its hardly Britpop culture right now lets say that much!