Brexit

I don't hate Leavers. I am annoyed with them and perhaps make judgments about their character based on the vote they deliberately decided to cast.

If 'the people' voted to bring back hanging, I would disdain them, and hold them responsible for the deaths that ensue. I don't see why I can't hold Leavers responsible for the damage they've caused, to me personally, and to the country in general.

darksideby182 wrote:Couldn't this backlash be applied to any general election? I.e my party promised this but didn't get in/stayed in, another party got in and have changed the ways of the country (which may already be in place) now i'm gonna lose out?

Sure, but a General Election happens every 5 years and most things are reversible.

A referendum is more of a one off (we could have another of course, but most Leavers don’t seem keen) and it’s an issue that once implemented can never be undone. Once we leave that’s it, rejoining is possible but not under the great deal we had (rebate, keeping the pound etc).

Brexit is also tied into people’s very identity on both sides. Leavers feel very British, Remainers feel very European. That’s a big gap between people, far greater than political party support.

I can’t wait till the referendum on whether we should rejoin the EU or not. Everyone campaigns for yes but there are two camps. One side is labelled ‘project fear’, they say that we must rejoin under the EUs rules, which will mean the loss of the pound, no rebate and no veto. Whilst the happy flag waving side insist that they will be able to rejoin under the ‘old terms’ because the EU need us more than we need them. We will get to keep our historic pound, veto and rebate that can mean a greater allocation of funds into what remains of the two state run NHS hospitals left in the country.

After a successful rejoin vote, the British government attempt to negotiate the terms for our entry to appease a small number of Tory backbenchers and the right wing press. The EU hold firm repeating these are the terms for all new member countries. PM Boris Johnson and his chief negotiator David Davis leave triumphant stating that they have successfully negotiated the addition of Marmite to the EU’s conference breakfast menu and that this will be a great deal for British business.

We could keep the pound if we left and rejoined. We'd just have to do a Sweden or Denmark and I'm not sure how viable those options are

Hyperion wrote:We could keep the pound if we left and rejoined. We'd just have to do a Sweden or Denmark and I'm not sure how viable those options are

That’s not true. New joiners have to adopt the Euro once their economies meet the criteria. Us and Denmark have opt outs because we have been members before the Euro rules came in. Leaving and rejoining would nullify that exception.

I’m not somebody that particularly loves the pound, but the Leaver argument that “we can rejoin in a decade or so if people want to” is dishonest because they know British patriotism will be easily stoked up by the idea of taking on the Euro.

Moggy wrote:

Hyperion wrote:We could keep the pound if we left and rejoined. We'd just have to do a Sweden or Denmark and I'm not sure how viable those options are

That’s not true. New joiners have to adopt the Euro once their economies meet the criteria. Us and Denmark have opt outs because we have been members before the Euro rules came in. Leaving and rejoining would nullify that exception.

I’m not somebody that particularly loves the pound, but the Leaver argument that “we can rejoin in a decade or so if people want to” is dishonest because they know British patriotism will be easily stoked up by the idea of taking on the Euro.

Well yes, and you could not meet the criteria and therefore not join the Euro like Sweden

Hyperion wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Hyperion wrote:We could keep the pound if we left and rejoined. We'd just have to do a Sweden or Denmark and I'm not sure how viable those options are

That’s not true. New joiners have to adopt the Euro once their economies meet the criteria. Us and Denmark have opt outs because we have been members before the Euro rules came in. Leaving and rejoining would nullify that exception.

I’m not somebody that particularly loves the pound, but the Leaver argument that “we can rejoin in a decade or so if people want to” is dishonest because they know British patriotism will be easily stoked up by the idea of taking on the Euro.

Well yes, and you could not meet the criteria and therefore not join the Euro like Sweden

You could but we would not be a long standing member like Sweden that can pick and choose and we are not a poorer nation like Poland that will not meet the criteria for years to come. I can’t imagine that the UK will be allowed to just waltz back in after all this, there will be conditions to meet and promises to make. If the EU states want us to have the Euro, they will make that a condition of re-entry.

Moggy wrote:

Hyperion wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Hyperion wrote:We could keep the pound if we left and rejoined. We'd just have to do a Sweden or Denmark and I'm not sure how viable those options are

That’s not true. New joiners have to adopt the Euro once their economies meet the criteria. Us and Denmark have opt outs because we have been members before the Euro rules came in. Leaving and rejoining would nullify that exception.

I’m not somebody that particularly loves the pound, but the Leaver argument that “we can rejoin in a decade or so if people want to” is dishonest because they know British patriotism will be easily stoked up by the idea of taking on the Euro.

Well yes, and you could not meet the criteria and therefore not join the Euro like Sweden

You could but we would not be a long standing member like Sweden that can pick and choose and we are not a poorer nation like Poland that will not meet the criteria for years to come. I can’t imagine that the UK will be allowed to just waltz back in after all this, there will be conditions to meet and promises to make. If the EU states want us to have the Euro, they will make that a condition of re-entry.

It was a condition of Sweden's entry, they have just continually chosen not to join ERM II, and the UK could choose to do the same. But this is all hypothetical.

Hyperion wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Hyperion wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Hyperion wrote:We could keep the pound if we left and rejoined. We'd just have to do a Sweden or Denmark and I'm not sure how viable those options are

That’s not true. New joiners have to adopt the Euro once their economies meet the criteria. Us and Denmark have opt outs because we have been members before the Euro rules came in. Leaving and rejoining would nullify that exception.

I’m not somebody that particularly loves the pound, but the Leaver argument that “we can rejoin in a decade or so if people want to” is dishonest because they know British patriotism will be easily stoked up by the idea of taking on the Euro.

Well yes, and you could not meet the criteria and therefore not join the Euro like Sweden

You could but we would not be a long standing member like Sweden that can pick and choose and we are not a poorer nation like Poland that will not meet the criteria for years to come. I can’t imagine that the UK will be allowed to just waltz back in after all this, there will be conditions to meet and promises to make. If the EU states want us to have the Euro, they will make that a condition of re-entry.

It was a condition of Sweden's entry, they have just continually chosen not to join ERM II, and the UK could choose to do the same. But this is all hypothetical.

Yes but that was 23 years ago. And Sweden didn’t leave and then rejoin.

Moggy wrote:

Hyperion wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Hyperion wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Hyperion wrote:We could keep the pound if we left and rejoined. We'd just have to do a Sweden or Denmark and I'm not sure how viable those options are

That’s not true. New joiners have to adopt the Euro once their economies meet the criteria. Us and Denmark have opt outs because we have been members before the Euro rules came in. Leaving and rejoining would nullify that exception.

I’m not somebody that particularly loves the pound, but the Leaver argument that “we can rejoin in a decade or so if people want to” is dishonest because they know British patriotism will be easily stoked up by the idea of taking on the Euro.

Well yes, and you could not meet the criteria and therefore not join the Euro like Sweden

You could but we would not be a long standing member like Sweden that can pick and choose and we are not a poorer nation like Poland that will not meet the criteria for years to come. I can’t imagine that the UK will be allowed to just waltz back in after all this, there will be conditions to meet and promises to make. If the EU states want us to have the Euro, they will make that a condition of re-entry.

It was a condition of Sweden's entry, they have just continually chosen not to join ERM II, and the UK could choose to do the same. But this is all hypothetical.

Yes but that was 23 years ago. And Sweden didn’t leave and then rejoin.

They will realise how much they need us and beg us to come back!

Theres always the assumption in this hypothetical situation that the rest of the EU will want the UK to rejoin. Sadly, the only way I can see the UK wanting to rejoin anytime soon is if Brexit turns out to be a complete and utter disaster for the UK but great for the EU. If that happens why would the EU be all that interested in letting the UK back in?

bear wrote:Theres always the assumption in this hypothetical situation that the rest of the EU will want the UK to rejoin. Sadly, the only way I can see the UK wanting to rejoin anytime soon is if Brexit turns out to be a complete and utter disaster for the UK but great for the EU. If that happens why would the EU be all that interested in letting the UK back in?

Yep. Plus if we ever applied to rejoin then it will only take one of the 27 countries to say no and veto it.

Moggy wrote:

Hyperion wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Hyperion wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Hyperion wrote:We could keep the pound if we left and rejoined. We'd just have to do a Sweden or Denmark and I'm not sure how viable those options are

That’s not true. New joiners have to adopt the Euro once their economies meet the criteria. Us and Denmark have opt outs because we have been members before the Euro rules came in. Leaving and rejoining would nullify that exception.

I’m not somebody that particularly loves the pound, but the Leaver argument that “we can rejoin in a decade or so if people want to” is dishonest because they know British patriotism will be easily stoked up by the idea of taking on the Euro.

Well yes, and you could not meet the criteria and therefore not join the Euro like Sweden

You could but we would not be a long standing member like Sweden that can pick and choose and we are not a poorer nation like Poland that will not meet the criteria for years to come. I can’t imagine that the UK will be allowed to just waltz back in after all this, there will be conditions to meet and promises to make. If the EU states want us to have the Euro, they will make that a condition of re-entry.

It was a condition of Sweden's entry, they have just continually chosen not to join ERM II, and the UK could choose to do the same. But this is all hypothetical.

Yes but that was 23 years ago. And Sweden didn’t leave and then rejoin.

Which is irrelevant

Hyperion wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Hyperion wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Hyperion wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Hyperion wrote:We could keep the pound if we left and rejoined. We'd just have to do a Sweden or Denmark and I'm not sure how viable those options are

That’s not true. New joiners have to adopt the Euro once their economies meet the criteria. Us and Denmark have opt outs because we have been members before the Euro rules came in. Leaving and rejoining would nullify that exception.

I’m not somebody that particularly loves the pound, but the Leaver argument that “we can rejoin in a decade or so if people want to” is dishonest because they know British patriotism will be easily stoked up by the idea of taking on the Euro.

Well yes, and you could not meet the criteria and therefore not join the Euro like Sweden

You could but we would not be a long standing member like Sweden that can pick and choose and we are not a poorer nation like Poland that will not meet the criteria for years to come. I can’t imagine that the UK will be allowed to just waltz back in after all this, there will be conditions to meet and promises to make. If the EU states want us to have the Euro, they will make that a condition of re-entry.

It was a condition of Sweden's entry, they have just continually chosen not to join ERM II, and the UK could choose to do the same. But this is all hypothetical.

Yes but that was 23 years ago. And Sweden didn’t leave and then rejoin.

Which is irrelevant

Not really. Sweden joined the EU before the Euro properly existed, the UK (hypothetically) would be rejoining with the Euro well established. And after pissing about for years.

The rules are you have to join the Euro to join the EU. The ERM II loophole may well not be such a loophole during any potential negotiations for the UK to rejoin.

That would annoy the Swedes

Why would it? It’d be rather easy for the EU to say “sure the UK can rejoin, the condition for entry is joining ERM II and then the Euro”.

Nothing has to change for Sweden.

And the UK could say "yeah sure" and then not join

Which was my original point, Leavers are saying now “we can rejoin if leaving is gooseberry fool” but they know that rejoining will sound gooseberry fool as we will have lost all of our perks.

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