Brexit

Migration figures: Highest number of EU nationals leaving UK in a decade

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43154308

Evil Ted wrote:Lib Dems have had a higher membership than the Conservatives for the last six months now.

That's wonderful for them. It's a shame they had 11,264,774 less votes than the Conservatives at the last election though.

Moggy wrote:

Hime wrote:You reckon? I would have thought the Trump and Brexit era has shown people exactly how much their vote matters.

I don’t reckon, I know. Look at the 2017 general election, how many votes went to parties other than the Conservatives, Labour and the SNP?

People look at the Lib Dems or independents as a “wasted vote, they won’t win!”.

Sorry, I completely missed the context and thought you were talking about voting in general

I think if there was ever a time to try something different it's now. As you've discussed it is very difficult to find that sweet spot of pitching a party as 'for the people' but also 'educated and know what we're doing'. It doesn't help that you could have a bullet proof manifesto that objectively proved to be better for everyone backed up with the figures and it would still get shot down by politicians/newspapers and that would be the burden of proof for some. It's basically a popularity contest, the best thing a new party could do is get David Beckham or someone from One Direction Little Mix as their front person.

Moggy wrote:

Evil Ted wrote:Lib Dems have had a higher membership than the Conservatives for the last six months now.

That's wonderful for them. It's a shame they had 11,264,774 less votes than the Conservatives at the last election though.

And just 2 votes fewer than the SNP in Fife North East.

There's a lot of positives to be had from the latest immigration figures should you look at them neutrally. Immigration from countries outside the EU up dramatically instead which is what I always believed would happen, more students choosing to study here, in excess of 10,000 refugees being accepted that may increase to 20,000, applications for British citizenship up. If you'd rather EU nationals be here instead, or want immigration to be falling, then maybe not so good news. But there is room for a much fairer immigration system here should the government of the day choose to implement one properly.

All this at a time Emmanuel Macron has unveiled his own hardline stance on immigration in France, with undocumented people being able to be kept in holding centres for up to 3 months, and sending people back to their country of origin much faster. But it is ironic that the EU is now tightening their immigration policies at a time we're leaving (partially because of it).

Evil Ted wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Evil Ted wrote:Lib Dems have had a higher membership than the Conservatives for the last six months now.

That's wonderful for them. It's a shame they had 11,264,774 less votes than the Conservatives at the last election though.

And just 2 votes fewer than the SNP in Fife North East.

Well if they ever manage to take Fife North East then I will change my mind and declare Vince Cable as the next Prime Minister.

Moggy wrote:Well if they ever manage to take Fife North East then I will change my mind and declare Vince Cable as the next Prime Minister.

Change your mind?

KK wrote:All this at a time Emmanuel Macron has unveiled his own hardline stance on immigration in France, with undocumented people being able to be kept in holding centres for up to 3 months, and sending people back to their country of origin much faster. But it is ironic that the EU is now tightening their immigration policies at a time we're leaving (partially because of it).

How have the EU tightened up their immigration policies? France taking a harder line on undocumented migrants has nothing to do with the EU, France (and the UK) has always been free to tighten up policies on non-EU migration.

Evil Ted wrote:

Moggy wrote:Well if they ever manage to take Fife North East then I will change my mind and declare Vince Cable as the next Prime Minister.

Change your mind?

I said people don't vote Lib Dem because they don't think they will win.

You said that the Lib Dems have a higher membership than the Tories.

I said they had 11 million less votes.

You said they were 2 votes behind in Fife North East.

I said (sarcastically) that if they take Fife North East then I will change my mind and believe that they can win the election.

Moggy wrote:

Evil Ted wrote:

Moggy wrote:Well if they ever manage to take Fife North East then I will change my mind and declare Vince Cable as the next Prime Minister.

Change your mind?

I said people don't vote Lib Dem because they don't think they will win.

You said that the Lib Dems have a higher membership than the Tories.

I said they had 11 million less votes.

You said they were 2 votes behind in Fife North East.

I said (sarcastically) that if they take Fife North East then I will change my mind and believe that they can win the election.

Would you be less on guard if I used a different example besides the Lib Dems?

Evil Ted wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Evil Ted wrote:

Moggy wrote:Well if they ever manage to take Fife North East then I will change my mind and declare Vince Cable as the next Prime Minister.

Change your mind?

I said people don't vote Lib Dem because they don't think they will win.

You said that the Lib Dems have a higher membership than the Tories.

I said they had 11 million less votes.

You said they were 2 votes behind in Fife North East.

I said (sarcastically) that if they take Fife North East then I will change my mind and believe that they can win the election.

Would you be less on guard if I used a different example besides the Lib Dems?

I am not on guard.

My sole point is that people don't tend to vote (in great numbers) for parties other than the Tories and Labour. It doesn't matter if you bring up the Lib Dems, the Greens, UKIP or Renew, the answer is the same, people just don't vote for those parties in big enough numbers to make a difference.

I would love the Tory/Labour duopoly to be broken. I just don't see it happening.

Moggy wrote:people just don't vote for those parties in big enough numbers to make a difference.

Yeah, this is what I thought I was talking about when I brought up the NE Fife majority of 2.

Moggy wrote:

Evil Ted wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Evil Ted wrote:

Moggy wrote:Well if they ever manage to take Fife North East then I will change my mind and declare Vince Cable as the next Prime Minister.

Change your mind?

I said people don't vote Lib Dem because they don't think they will win.

You said that the Lib Dems have a higher membership than the Tories.

I said they had 11 million less votes.

You said they were 2 votes behind in Fife North East.

I said (sarcastically) that if they take Fife North East then I will change my mind and believe that they can win the election.

Would you be less on guard if I used a different example besides the Lib Dems?

I am not on guard.

My sole point is that people don't tend to vote (in great numbers) for parties other than the Tories and Labour. It doesn't matter if you bring up the Lib Dems, the Greens, UKIP or Renew, the answer is the same, people just don't vote for those parties in big enough numbers to make a difference.

I would love the Tory/Labour duopoly to be broken. I just don't see it happening.

Get a room

Moggy wrote:

lex-man wrote:

Moggy wrote:

lex-man wrote:I don't know I feel like a single issue party free form baggage would be a good thing right now. I feel like we need a change in British politics.

We need a change but I am not convinced that it will happen. People worry too much that their vote is irrelevant now, convincing them that their vote should go on a completely new party that appears to have no unique policies? I can’t see it happening.

If they can attract some charismatic and talented people then they might be able to slowly build something, but it will be far too slow to have any impact on Brexit. Brexit will be a long way in the past before they get anywhere near enough traction to make a difference.

But if we don't try and change anything, nothing will change or it'll continue to get worse.

I am not saying don’t try, I am saying don’t be shocked if a brand new party doesn’t take off.

Fair enough then.

Evil Ted wrote:

Moggy wrote:people just don't vote for those parties in big enough numbers to make a difference.

Yeah, this is what I thought I was talking about when I brought up the NE Fife majority of 2.

I wasn’t disputing it was close there, but it doesn’t really change my point that the Tories and Labour are the only ones that will form a government. The SNP and the Lib Dem’s fighting over a seat in Scotland has little impact on how the country as a whole is governed.

NE Fife didn’t really have big numbers either:

13,743 SNP
13,741 Lib Dem

Moggy wrote:

Evil Ted wrote:

Moggy wrote:people just don't vote for those parties in big enough numbers to make a difference.

Yeah, this is what I thought I was talking about when I brought up the NE Fife majority of 2.

I wasn’t disputing it was close there, but it doesn’t really change my point that the Tories and Labour are the only ones that will form a government. The SNP and the Lib Dem’s fighting over a seat in Scotland has little impact on how the country as a whole is governed.

NE Fife didn’t really have big numbers either:

13,743 SNP
13,741 Lib Dem

Well, it made all the difference.

twitter.com/pointlesslettrs/status/966636475340263424

With letters like that sent to newspapers, I really don’t think that comment sections are as full of Russian bots as we like to think.

Evil Ted wrote:

Moggy wrote:

Evil Ted wrote:

Moggy wrote:people just don't vote for those parties in big enough numbers to make a difference.

Yeah, this is what I thought I was talking about when I brought up the NE Fife majority of 2.

I wasn’t disputing it was close there, but it doesn’t really change my point that the Tories and Labour are the only ones that will form a government. The SNP and the Lib Dem’s fighting over a seat in Scotland has little impact on how the country as a whole is governed.

NE Fife didn’t really have big numbers either:

13,743 SNP
13,741 Lib Dem

Well, it made all the difference.

To what?

Moggy wrote:To what?

Uh, sorry. I'm not making sense. I'll try to be more clear.

When you said this:

Moggy wrote:People look at the Lib Dems or independents as a “wasted vote, they won’t win!”.

I disagreed, and gave an example of a time where votes really did matter, and where they (Lib Dems or independents) really would have won.

I apologise for not being clear. This was what I was trying to talk about.

Evil Ted wrote:

Moggy wrote:To what?

Uh, sorry. I'm not making sense. I'll try to be more clear.

When you said this:

Moggy wrote:People look at the Lib Dems or independents as a “wasted vote, they won’t win!”.

I disagreed, and gave an example of a time where votes really did matter, and where they (Lib Dems or independents) really would have won.

I apologise for not being clear. This was what I was trying to talk about.

No need to apologise, I was just confused!

Yes sometimes in some areas the vote will be close enough for every single vote to make a big difference.

Overall though? A Labour supporter in a safe Conservative seat will make no difference. A Lib Dem supporter almost anywhere will make no difference.

Of course if everyone stopped thinking like that and voted for who they wanted then things might change. But people don't like the idea of "wasting" their vote and so vote based on who they think has a chance of winning. Or they vote based on which party they hate the most and so vote for somebody they think will beat the party they hate.