The last game you gave up on and your reasons + some gooseberry fool about MGS

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FudgeDiver
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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by FudgeDiver » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:53 pm

Revengeance captures the metal gear spirit much more than those games.

4 literally is only saved by Ocelot

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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by OrangeRKN » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:58 pm

4 is peak MGS, it opens with you changing between live-action in universe TV channels and only gets stranger from there. Revengeance has some great stuff in it but it owes a lot of itself to MGS4 if you ask me

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garfield.0
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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by garfield.0 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:04 am

revengeance was great but I didn't rate the dlc

the robot dog did not deliver on its promise

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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by FudgeDiver » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:05 am

In terms of being a sequel, it does, yes.

But it also fills the villain quota much more rigidly and memorably than 4, which is 60% of MGS outside of 2, which is memorable for something only it can uniquely perform. 4 also loses points for trying to explain MGS2. Vamp being explained as 'lol nanomachines' is a strawberry floating sin

No-one remembers anything about Beauty and the Beast corps, but every member of Desperado is great, even Khamsin

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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by OrangeRKN » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:12 am

FudgeDiver wrote:In terms of being a sequel, it does, yes.

But it also fills the villain quota much more rigidly and memorably than 4, which is 60% of MGS outside of 2, which is memorable for something only it can uniquely perform. 4 also loses points for trying to explain MGS2. Vamp being explained as 'lol nanomachines' is a strawberry floating sin

No-one remembers anything about Beauty and the Beast corps, but every member of Desperado is great, even Khamsin


I see constant retconning and flip-flopping between science explanations or the paranormal as vital to the MGS brand. And that vamp/raiden split-screen fight in 4 was ballin'.

You're right about the Beauty and the Beast corps, but then MGS4 also had the metal gear mech fight and the ocelot fist fight.

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FudgeDiver
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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by FudgeDiver » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:39 am

MGS4's finale is rightfully the highpoint of the franchise, it's just the rest of the game that's meh

Whilst there was always the paranormal in MGS, MGS2 as a game thrives on the 'is this actually happening' on several levels. Fortune being fairly normal (with a bit of mysticism thrown in at the end) and Vamp both being crazy supernatural helps with this, as a form of escalation from Foxhound to Dead Cell. Vamp should have just been packed away and left as a mystery, if they wanted the events of 2 to have actually happened for MGS4

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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by OrangeRKN » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:42 am

I'm still not sure if Ocelot was actually possessed by Liquid or if he just conditioned himself to think he was.

I'm pretty sure the canon explanation is that both actually happened

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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by FudgeDiver » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:34 pm

At least, that one wasn't as much of a copout as it was left ambiguous what actually happened

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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by Vermilion » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:15 pm

FudgeDiver wrote:MGS4's finale is rightfully the highpoint of the franchise


I didn't think it was ever going to end.

The biggest problem i've always had with Metal Gear Solid, was that while the gameplay was sound, the plot was bollocks.

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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by Squinty » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:32 pm

RULES OF NATURE!!!!!!!!

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FudgeDiver
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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by FudgeDiver » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:04 pm

Vermilion wrote:the plot was bollocks.


Literally only 4 and 5 is that and for different reasons

4 because it tries to piece together the deliberate lunacy of MGS2

and 5 because there is no plot


also stealing orphans brains to make soldier robots is a great villain motive

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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by Minoru » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:32 pm

I gave up on Danganronpa. It seemed in theory like the kind of game I'd like and I kept hearing good things, but all of the characters were really boring stereotype/cliches with no interesting features. I don't know if they get more interesting later on, but it was enough to put me off by the time I finished the first trial and I haven’t felt inclined to go back.

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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by Vermilion » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:07 am

FudgeDiver wrote:
Vermilion wrote:the plot was bollocks.


Literally only 4 and 5 is that and for different reasons


I thought 2 was also like it, the game started out *ahem* solid enough, but then it just descended into complete nonsense.

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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by OrangeRKN » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:40 pm

Vermilion wrote:I thought 2 was also like it, the game started out *ahem* solid enough, but then it just ascended into complete post-modern art.


:wub:

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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by gamerforever » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:53 pm

Xenoblade Chronicles 2 - Just lost my way and couldn't enjoy the repetitive combat system. I've never liked turn based combat and it is a little old school and shouldn't really be relevant in this day and age.

Dark Souls - Smough and Ornstein got the better of me and I gave up after so many attempts at trying to defeat them. I will repurchase the remaster on the PS4 Pro and complete it by summoning help if I cannot do it myself!

The Witcher 3 - Just couldn't get into this so sold it a week after I purchased it. I repurchased it a month later and spent about 80 hours completing the various side quests and then the DLC. One of the best games this generation and the various updates have just made this even better!

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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by FudgeDiver » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:36 pm

what OR said, really

MGS2 is a game that can never happen again and a testament to its success is the years of people who whinged about using Raiden

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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by _/\_YUNGSTAR_/\_ » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:40 pm

Monster Hunter World.
Just can't get away with the attack controls, yes I understand it's me not the game. But, enough is enough.

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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by Vermilion » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:49 pm

FudgeDiver wrote:MGS2 is a game that can never happen again and a testament to its success is the years of people who whinged about using Raiden


I never actually had a problem with the whole playing as Raiden thing, it was just the weirdness of the latter stages of the story which put me off.

That said, Raiden was miles better in MGS2 compared to how he was in 4 when they made him all robotic for some reason, that was just downright ridiculous.

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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by Yubel » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:36 pm

I very rarely break off from any games and that's only become even more of a rarity as the years go by. It really comes down to just a few key factors: I always know enough about what I'm getting into to say "this is my jam". Roughly 90% of games I end up purchasing, especially in the past couple of years, invite me to spend at least a solid month (or 5 if you're anything like BoTW or Horizon) of thorough investigation. And lastly there's the fact I just don't take as many risks - not only on new IP but on dipping my toe into already established franchises; Yakuza, Far Cry and Ace Combat being some that I'd recently been considering jumping on.

Anyways, the last game I gave up on was Kid Icarus: Uprising on the 3DS. I may feel inclined to give it another crack if it ever gets remastered on Switch.

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FudgeDiver
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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by FudgeDiver » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:59 pm

basically, to give you a rundown on why it becoming bizarre at the end is the reason the game is so good.

it opens with your expectations of Metal Gear Solid, you playing as Snake doing things like in MGS1, which is what the first part of the ruse is. But then part 2 comes, which is meant to be a recreation of the shadow moses incident, with Raiden playing the part of Snake, much like what is expected for a sequel.

But it's not, Raiden isn't Snake. But he plays almost exactly the same and fills the same role. But they're not the same. Even similar things aren't the same, like you fighting a Harrier and not a Hind. The fantastical is increased further, with the shamans and psychics of MGS1 replaced with a literal vampire and a woman who's so lucky she cannot be hurt (Which the game tries subverting, but still gives the whiff of it being there). Notably, Vamp himself is a callback to Liquid Snake never strawberry floating dying.

This recreation could be called as an attempt to create an in universe sequel, but it's not quite right, there's things missing and not right. The foremost being the protagonist for part 2 onwards, Raiden. He's set up as the protagonist replacing the 'dead' Snake, and his actor in the recreation. However, despite Raiden himself getting into the Snake role (even taking his name for a short while), he's definitely not Snake. He's a stand in for the player themself, a person living vicariously through videogames, pretending they're someone they're not. In Raiden's case, he thinks of himself as a legendary soldier, despite his only experience being VR, essentially videogames. Both Raiden and Player had fond memories of experiencing Shadow Moses themselves, despite not being there, they felt like they were. But, Raiden is controlled by the player and controlled to his whims, right down to his dogtags having your name on them.

Towards the end of the game, when it starts getting more bizarre, is when Raiden finally asserts his difference from Snake. You could also say it's when MGS2 asserts its difference from all the callbacks to MGS1. Raiden's use of a sword also represents this, a weapon that Snake has never used. At this point too, the facade also breaks down. The Colonel starts freaking out, as Raiden is breaking free from the recreation and the game is breaking free of the shackles of being a sequel. He, and the player wanted to believe it was the real Roy Campbell, since that was 'MGS1' in their eyes. The recreation/game/Patriot AI doesn't like that everything is not going as it should and it starts freaking out and getting weirder, such as the locations being named from the actual body parts.

Even with all these deviations, the final nail in the coffin is Solid Snake himself arriving, fully distinct from Raiden. Raiden is a man running with a sword, a weapon unique to him from Snake, whilst Snake is as he is in the player/Raidens memory. Raiden's fully differentiated himself and MGS2 is no longer a retread of MGS1, you're now playing the game differently.

The game finally sheds MGS1 after this when Liquid takes over Ocelot, taking the RAY and legging it, with Snake in hot pursuit, just leaving Solidus and Raiden together, everyone from the prior game dead or having left. And at the end of the game, when you no longer have control, Raiden sheds his Dog tags with you on, moving on from both the game and MGS1.

tldr MGS2 is set up to be a by the numbers sequel, but it and Raiden manage to break free of being just rehashes of their prior incarnation and make something unique for themself.


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