The last game you gave up on and your reasons + some gooseberry fool about MGS

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FudgeDiver
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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by FudgeDiver » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:34 pm

At least, that one wasn't as much of a copout as it was left ambiguous what actually happened

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Vermi-Claus
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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by Vermi-Claus » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:15 pm

FudgeDiver wrote:MGS4's finale is rightfully the highpoint of the franchise


I didn't think it was ever going to end.

The biggest problem i've always had with Metal Gear Solid, was that while the gameplay was sound, the plot was bollocks.

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Squinty
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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by Squinty » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:32 pm

RULES OF NATURE!!!!!!!!

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FudgeDiver
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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by FudgeDiver » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:04 pm

Vermilion wrote:the plot was bollocks.


Literally only 4 and 5 is that and for different reasons

4 because it tries to piece together the deliberate lunacy of MGS2

and 5 because there is no plot


also stealing orphans brains to make soldier robots is a great villain motive

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Minoru
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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by Minoru » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:32 pm

I gave up on Danganronpa. It seemed in theory like the kind of game I'd like and I kept hearing good things, but all of the characters were really boring stereotype/cliches with no interesting features. I don't know if they get more interesting later on, but it was enough to put me off by the time I finished the first trial and I haven’t felt inclined to go back.

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Vermi-Claus
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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by Vermi-Claus » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:07 am

FudgeDiver wrote:
Vermilion wrote:the plot was bollocks.


Literally only 4 and 5 is that and for different reasons


I thought 2 was also like it, the game started out *ahem* solid enough, but then it just descended into complete nonsense.

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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by OrangeReindeer » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:40 pm

Vermilion wrote:I thought 2 was also like it, the game started out *ahem* solid enough, but then it just ascended into complete post-modern art.


:wub:

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gamerforever
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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by gamerforever » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:53 pm

Xenoblade Chronicles 2 - Just lost my way and couldn't enjoy the repetitive combat system. I've never liked turn based combat and it is a little old school and shouldn't really be relevant in this day and age.

Dark Souls - Smough and Ornstein got the better of me and I gave up after so many attempts at trying to defeat them. I will repurchase the remaster on the PS4 Pro and complete it by summoning help if I cannot do it myself!

The Witcher 3 - Just couldn't get into this so sold it a week after I purchased it. I repurchased it a month later and spent about 80 hours completing the various side quests and then the DLC. One of the best games this generation and the various updates have just made this even better!

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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by FudgeDiver » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:36 pm

what OR said, really

MGS2 is a game that can never happen again and a testament to its success is the years of people who whinged about using Raiden

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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by _/\_YUNGSTAR_/\_ » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:40 pm

Monster Hunter World.
Just can't get away with the attack controls, yes I understand it's me not the game. But, enough is enough.

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Vermi-Claus
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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by Vermi-Claus » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:49 pm

FudgeDiver wrote:MGS2 is a game that can never happen again and a testament to its success is the years of people who whinged about using Raiden


I never actually had a problem with the whole playing as Raiden thing, it was just the weirdness of the latter stages of the story which put me off.

That said, Raiden was miles better in MGS2 compared to how he was in 4 when they made him all robotic for some reason, that was just downright ridiculous.

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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by Yubel » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:36 pm

I very rarely break off from any games and that's only become even more of a rarity as the years go by. It really comes down to just a few key factors: I always know enough about what I'm getting into to say "this is my jam". Roughly 90% of games I end up purchasing, especially in the past couple of years, invite me to spend at least a solid month (or 5 if you're anything like BoTW or Horizon) of thorough investigation. And lastly there's the fact I just don't take as many risks - not only on new IP but on dipping my toe into already established franchises; Yakuza, Far Cry and Ace Combat being some that I'd recently been considering jumping on.

Anyways, the last game I gave up on was Kid Icarus: Uprising on the 3DS. I may feel inclined to give it another crack if it ever gets remastered on Switch.

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FudgeDiver
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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by FudgeDiver » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:59 pm

basically, to give you a rundown on why it becoming bizarre at the end is the reason the game is so good.

it opens with your expectations of Metal Gear Solid, you playing as Snake doing things like in MGS1, which is what the first part of the ruse is. But then part 2 comes, which is meant to be a recreation of the shadow moses incident, with Raiden playing the part of Snake, much like what is expected for a sequel.

But it's not, Raiden isn't Snake. But he plays almost exactly the same and fills the same role. But they're not the same. Even similar things aren't the same, like you fighting a Harrier and not a Hind. The fantastical is increased further, with the shamans and psychics of MGS1 replaced with a literal vampire and a woman who's so lucky she cannot be hurt (Which the game tries subverting, but still gives the whiff of it being there). Notably, Vamp himself is a callback to Liquid Snake never strawberry floating dying.

This recreation could be called as an attempt to create an in universe sequel, but it's not quite right, there's things missing and not right. The foremost being the protagonist for part 2 onwards, Raiden. He's set up as the protagonist replacing the 'dead' Snake, and his actor in the recreation. However, despite Raiden himself getting into the Snake role (even taking his name for a short while), he's definitely not Snake. He's a stand in for the player themself, a person living vicariously through videogames, pretending they're someone they're not. In Raiden's case, he thinks of himself as a legendary soldier, despite his only experience being VR, essentially videogames. Both Raiden and Player had fond memories of experiencing Shadow Moses themselves, despite not being there, they felt like they were. But, Raiden is controlled by the player and controlled to his whims, right down to his dogtags having your name on them.

Towards the end of the game, when it starts getting more bizarre, is when Raiden finally asserts his difference from Snake. You could also say it's when MGS2 asserts its difference from all the callbacks to MGS1. Raiden's use of a sword also represents this, a weapon that Snake has never used. At this point too, the facade also breaks down. The Colonel starts freaking out, as Raiden is breaking free from the recreation and the game is breaking free of the shackles of being a sequel. He, and the player wanted to believe it was the real Roy Campbell, since that was 'MGS1' in their eyes. The recreation/game/Patriot AI doesn't like that everything is not going as it should and it starts freaking out and getting weirder, such as the locations being named from the actual body parts.

Even with all these deviations, the final nail in the coffin is Solid Snake himself arriving, fully distinct from Raiden. Raiden is a man running with a sword, a weapon unique to him from Snake, whilst Snake is as he is in the player/Raidens memory. Raiden's fully differentiated himself and MGS2 is no longer a retread of MGS1, you're now playing the game differently.

The game finally sheds MGS1 after this when Liquid takes over Ocelot, taking the RAY and legging it, with Snake in hot pursuit, just leaving Solidus and Raiden together, everyone from the prior game dead or having left. And at the end of the game, when you no longer have control, Raiden sheds his Dog tags with you on, moving on from both the game and MGS1.

tldr MGS2 is set up to be a by the numbers sequel, but it and Raiden manage to break free of being just rehashes of their prior incarnation and make something unique for themself.

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garfield.0
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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by garfield.0 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:47 pm

I see.

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Parksey
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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by Parksey » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:25 am

I've always quite liked MGS2. Admittedly, I played it on the original Xbox a few years after release and I was never a massive fan of the series. The fuss over the Twin Snakes remake passed me by, and I enjoyed that too.

The big problem with the MGS series is that the story-telling, for all its tricks and self-referential nods and winks, is still crap. Rather than inferring all that stuff FudgeDiver mentioned, we have it shoved down our throats in fairly boring cutscenes or, worse, codec conversations. Kojima is a good ideas man and has an eye for small details, but is a pretty bad story-teller.

The other problem is that the gameplay has always felt shonky and dated. MGS2 felt like a generation old when I played it in 2004 or whatever. It felt like an original PlayStation game. And I started MGS4 over the weekend and while I've played it for about 15 mins so far (watched it for a long longer), Snake still doesn't feel like you're controlling an actual human when you have the controller in your hands. And a lot of the boss battles, though cool in appearance and design, aren't actually that fun, as you're wrestling with the controls. Shooting at the Harrier in MGS2 or Volgin in the tank in MGS3 stand out. They are effectively a FPS boss battle but Snake\Raiden move similarly to characters in the PS Resident Evil games.

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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by OrangeReindeer » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:45 am

Parksey wrote:The other problem is that the gameplay has always felt shonky and dated.


MGSV has the best and most refined gameplay of any third person shooter ever made

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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by Parksey » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:42 am

OrangeRakoon wrote:
Parksey wrote:The other problem is that the gameplay has always felt shonky and dated.


MGSV has the best and most refined gameplay of any third person shooter ever made


Only just up to MGS4 at the moment but will get round to V eventually. But I would argue that since 1, you've never been able to label an MGS game the best stealth game ever made. MGS4 feels like a PS2 game so far, visuals apart. And I said before that MGS2 and 3 felt dated in certain areas not long after release either.

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Squinty
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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons + some gooseberry fool about MGS
by Squinty » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:09 pm

MGS2 is cack. Although I have beaten it twice, back on the PS2 and the HD edition. I gave it a fair shake.

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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons
by Preezy » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:10 pm

FudgeDiver wrote:
basically, to give you a rundown on why it becoming bizarre at the end is the reason the game is so good.

it opens with your expectations of Metal Gear Solid, you playing as Snake doing things like in MGS1, which is what the first part of the ruse is. But then part 2 comes, which is meant to be a recreation of the shadow moses incident, with Raiden playing the part of Snake, much like what is expected for a sequel.

But it's not, Raiden isn't Snake. But he plays almost exactly the same and fills the same role. But they're not the same. Even similar things aren't the same, like you fighting a Harrier and not a Hind. The fantastical is increased further, with the shamans and psychics of MGS1 replaced with a literal vampire and a woman who's so lucky she cannot be hurt (Which the game tries subverting, but still gives the whiff of it being there). Notably, Vamp himself is a callback to Liquid Snake never strawberry floating dying.

This recreation could be called as an attempt to create an in universe sequel, but it's not quite right, there's things missing and not right. The foremost being the protagonist for part 2 onwards, Raiden. He's set up as the protagonist replacing the 'dead' Snake, and his actor in the recreation. However, despite Raiden himself getting into the Snake role (even taking his name for a short while), he's definitely not Snake. He's a stand in for the player themself, a person living vicariously through videogames, pretending they're someone they're not. In Raiden's case, he thinks of himself as a legendary soldier, despite his only experience being VR, essentially videogames. Both Raiden and Player had fond memories of experiencing Shadow Moses themselves, despite not being there, they felt like they were. But, Raiden is controlled by the player and controlled to his whims, right down to his dogtags having your name on them.

Towards the end of the game, when it starts getting more bizarre, is when Raiden finally asserts his difference from Snake. You could also say it's when MGS2 asserts its difference from all the callbacks to MGS1. Raiden's use of a sword also represents this, a weapon that Snake has never used. At this point too, the facade also breaks down. The Colonel starts freaking out, as Raiden is breaking free from the recreation and the game is breaking free of the shackles of being a sequel. He, and the player wanted to believe it was the real Roy Campbell, since that was 'MGS1' in their eyes. The recreation/game/Patriot AI doesn't like that everything is not going as it should and it starts freaking out and getting weirder, such as the locations being named from the actual body parts.

Even with all these deviations, the final nail in the coffin is Solid Snake himself arriving, fully distinct from Raiden. Raiden is a man running with a sword, a weapon unique to him from Snake, whilst Snake is as he is in the player/Raidens memory. Raiden's fully differentiated himself and MGS2 is no longer a retread of MGS1, you're now playing the game differently.

The game finally sheds MGS1 after this when Liquid takes over Ocelot, taking the RAY and legging it, with Snake in hot pursuit, just leaving Solidus and Raiden together, everyone from the prior game dead or having left. And at the end of the game, when you no longer have control, Raiden sheds his Dog tags with you on, moving on from both the game and MGS1.

tldr MGS2 is set up to be a by the numbers sequel, but it and Raiden manage to break free of being just rehashes of their prior incarnation and make something unique for themself.

Well that's a very interesting take on it, thanks for sharing :D

Is that perhaps why Raiden appears androgynous? That way the player (male or female) can imprint themselves onto the character?

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Trelliz
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PostRe: The last game you gave up on and your reasons + some gooseberry fool about MGS
by Trelliz » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:02 pm

I gave up on the first MGS after not finding the mine detector and the controls in the first sniper wolf battle being a total chore. By that point i'd had enough and casual'd out.

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