The Last of Us (TV Show)

PostRe: The Last of Us (TV Show) by **Imrahil** » Tue Mar 14, 2023 11:10 am

Yeah, you'd think extermination squads would be able to systematically clear areas without the threat of airborne infection.

But then, at least as far as the show is concerned, human survivors seem scattered and dwindling, it's pretty much a wasteland now. Settlements here and there, mainly in some city centres - plus walled compounds like Jackson. Out of a population of 300 million, are there around 10 million non-infected humans left in the US by this point? Maybe less.

Setting up a system of exterminating almost 300 million infected humans is probably beyond anyone now. 20 years of no weapons and ammunition manufacturing has got to be an ever growing issue too perhaps? Although being the US, they're set up better than most countries for ammo stocks I guess. :lol:

PostRe: The Last of Us (TV Show) by **Carlos** » Tue Mar 14, 2023 12:23 pm

OrangeRKN wrote:
Captain Kinopio wrote:The little skit at the start felt unnecessary, in fact I think I prefer having that aspect of the story a bit of mystery.

Not just unnecessary, but it raises questions that make for a worse and more contrived plot. Ellie being the only person with immunity isn't as unique and final when we are shown it to be basically a vaccination that could happen to anyone and be repeated rather than a one-off genetic fluke. Worse still Marlene was there to see the circumstances of her birth (near enough) so should have the knowledge of how to try and find a cure. With this new context the Fireflies don't necessarily need Ellie, they can try replicating her immunity!

I liked the rest of the finale but that above has soured me particularly because it wasn't necessary.

I thought Ellie’s immunity was more of a genetic quirk that she was effectively born with, like the way Blade isn’t quite a whole Vampire because his mother was bitten and the virus interjected with his foetal genetics.

In other words it wouldn’t have been possible for anyone to use Ellie to make a vaccine because her immunity is not replicable. This is why I thought Joel was justified in his actions: there was maybe a 10% chance a solo scientist might have developed a cure at all. It might have been accelerated but the Covid vaccine was created by thousands of people working thousands of hours. The Cordyceps infection wasn’t just a virus you can vaccinate like smallpox but a symbiosis.

PostRe: The Last of Us (TV Show) by **TigaSefi** » Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:04 am

The finale for me was great but so so short. They could have used all of the 60 mins one get for a show and expanded even more on some of the scenes. I loved the whole series and hopefully Craig Mazin and others will take back some feedback and improve some of the pacing for season 2. Really properly enjoyed a lot of it.

PostRe: The Last of Us (TV Show) by **sawyerpip** » Wed Mar 15, 2023 1:25 am

I think this was probably well treaded over at the time of the game release but I don't really like the whole debate over whether the Fireflies actually had the capability to make a cure or vaccine. It's clearly not the point of the story and just distracts from the emotional and moral beats of the narrative. I guess it can be an interesting side discussion, and I get that it might be worth a discussion of whether the world-building made it so that the moral choice was a believable one, but so many discussions on the story seem way too focused on details which ultimately are not the point.

PostRe: The Last of Us (TV Show) by **Skarjo** » Wed Mar 15, 2023 1:53 am

So I really enjoyed the finale, and I especially enjoyed the way it tonally leads into TLOU2 more effectively than my (admittedly cloudy) memory of how the first game ended.

I don't necessarily think that there being ambiguity as to whether the Fireflies actually could use Ellie to make a vaccine detracts from the main themes of the story. It's another dimension, but it is a relevant aspect of the morality of Joel's massacre. I seem to remember the game being a lot less grey about whether rescuing Ellie was the right thing to do, but maybe I was just in 'Rescue the Princess' mode and hadn't really evaluated whether Joel was actually doing something awful. Under most circumstances 'Save the child from deadly experiments'isn't usually presented as a nuanced argument. I think that's why I found the tonal shift in TLOU2 so jarring at first because I was sure that these weren't the character dynamics that we'd been left with at the end of TLOU1 (though I full on hands up admit that I might just not have been paying that much attention to the nuances of the first plot). So I think the way it's been presented in the show is more consistent tonally and will be less jarring going into next season.

I also just wanted more. The final couple of episodes seemed to really rush Joel and Ellie into a father/daughter relationship so that the ending could work and I really would have liked some more time to chew on the developing dynamic. There's nothing I'd have cut, I think the two 'cut-out' episodes were both needed for establishing the world and relationships inside it, I just wanted more time to get to the final destination.

PostRe: The Last of Us (TV Show) by **sawyerpip** » Wed Mar 15, 2023 3:53 am

Skarjo wrote:
I don't necessarily think that there being ambiguity as to whether the Fireflies actually could use Ellie to make a vaccine detracts from the main themes of the story. It's another dimension, but it is a relevant aspect of the morality of Joel's massacre..

I agree with this and I don't think it detracts from anything, and can be an interesting conversation point. What annoys me is when it is boiled down to a question of was Joel right or wrong in what he did. For me the beauty in the story is understanding why Joel did what he did, not trying to decide whether it was the logical choice based on the scientific capabilities of the Fireflies.

Although I would disagree that it was played as the right or good choice. I don't think the game needed a sequel (although I very much enjoyed it and the directions it took the story), but I always felt the ending of the first was at best described as bittersweet.

PostRe: The Last of Us (TV Show) by **Skarjo** » Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:17 am

sawyerpip wrote:
Skarjo wrote:
I don't necessarily think that there being ambiguity as to whether the Fireflies actually could use Ellie to make a vaccine detracts from the main themes of the story. It's another dimension, but it is a relevant aspect of the morality of Joel's massacre..

I agree with this and I don't think it detracts from anything, and can be an interesting conversation point. What annoys me is when it is boiled down to a question of was Joel right or wrong in what he did. For me the beauty in the story is understanding why Joel did what he did, not trying to decide whether it was the logical choice based on the scientific capabilities of the Fireflies.

Although I would disagree that it was played as the right or good choice. I don't think the game needed a sequel (although I very much enjoyed it and the directions it took the story), but I always felt the ending of the first was at best described as bittersweet.

Yea, as I say I could totally be remembering the framing of the original ending wrong, but I don't ever remember thinking 'Oh am I justified in going on this horrible rampage to save Ellie? Is it worth the human cost? What would Ellie want? Do the ends justify the means? Is a vaccine even possible? What will I become if I do this? Who am I?' in favour of 'THEY'RE GOING TO RIP THE BRAIN OUT OF YOUR SORTA-DAUGHTER, AND THIS ROOM IS FULL OF AMMO AND HEALTH PACKS SO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS! COWABUNGA IT IS'

I should go back and replay it. Maybe I truly was the monster all along. Maybe the real monster was the friends we made along the way.

PostRe: The Last of Us (TV Show) by **Imrahil** » Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:55 am

PostRe: The Last of Us (TV Show) by **OrangeRKN** » Wed Mar 15, 2023 8:35 am

Imrahil wrote:
The moral dilemma surrounding Joel is entirely about whether he should have lied to Ellie afterwards.

This! I remember that always being the focus of discussion from the game too. Not just Joel's choice, but whether Ellie believes him.

Although I don't think the show is much different from the game at all, Skarjo's memory is just hazy.

PostRe: The Last of Us (TV Show) by **Wedgie** » Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:52 am

Don't forget that The fireflies never gave the choice to Ellie. They never told her that they had to kill her so they can get the cure.

PostRe: The Last of Us (TV Show) by **Van Foster** » Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:19 pm

Wedgie wrote:Don't forget that The fireflies never gave the choice to Ellie. They never told her that they had to kill her so they can get the cure.

Yeah,

PostRe: The Last of Us (TV Show) by **poshrule_uk** » Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:39 pm

I think the whole cure is ultimately a mcguffin. It starts the story rolling but until the end its largely the relationship thats the heart of the story, not the end game.

PostRe: The Last of Us (TV Show) by **Kezzer** » Wed Mar 15, 2023 2:20 pm

This TV show was completely average and for what it is worth I have not played the games or intend to.

PostRe: The Last of Us (TV Show) by **Barnsy!** » Wed Mar 15, 2023 2:40 pm

jiggles wrote:
Barnsy! wrote:
jiggles wrote:What part of the game does episode 4 cover up to? I’m playing alongside and trying to keep pace where I’m just ahead of the show.

That is such a cool way experiencing the game and TV show - have you been keeping this up.

I did yeah, I just wrapped up the PS5 remake a few days ago there. Never more than the next episode ahead the whole way through.

The only exception was Left Behind, which I didn’t go through. Didn’t make sense from the game side (it’s not *supposed* to be inserted in there).

It turned out to be a great way to do it. Kept the motivation up to go through a game I’ve beaten 4 times already while also allowing me greater clarity of comparison. There weren’t going to be any surprises in the series anyway, so I was happy to refresh my memory even more and compare the two more directly.

That's so cool and glad you had fun doing it this way and it breathed new life into a game you are clearly very fond of. I played both games one after the other in 2020 - to be honest I liked the second a lot more. I want to play the PS5 remake of the first game though. I remember the main beats of the first game but few details so watching the show it was all almost new to me.

gooseberry fool, didn't realise this season only had 9 episodes / its finished.

Watched episode 8 - hated the scene where Joel tortured and killed those 2 guys I don't think this happened in the game? I like Joel in the games and TV show, but the games made clear he was a [sympathetic] monster. Not to say that scene and Joels actions within the context of the show weren't justifiable; it felt like a prelude to the events in the next episode. Joels actionsat the end of the game were entirely in keeping with the way he was portrayed throughout the game, but up until this point I couldn't see TV Joel (who has done some shitty things) killing a hospital full of people

Episode 9 tonight

I enjoyed the series but not for the reasons I expected. The more standalone episodes (ep3, ep8) were incredible but came largely at the expense of the overall story. I also never bought Bella Ramsey as an American or Pedro Pascal as a Texan. I’m very conflicted about it but I’m glad it found a huge audience and has hopefully left a new model for adapting games into shows.

PostRe: The Last of Us (TV Show) by **jiggles** » Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:07 pm

Barnsy! wrote:I don't think this happened in the game?

It did. Pretty much exactly as it played out in the show.

PostRe: The Last of Us (TV Show) by **deathofcows** » Wed Mar 15, 2023 5:44 pm

jiggles wrote:
Barnsy! wrote:I don't think this happened in the game?

It did. Pretty much exactly as it played out in the show.

Yeah I was surprised when I re-checked this too.

Show was good, though probably very different an experience for TLOU-newcomers to those familiar with the game. For me (a serial forensic difference-analyser) I got a lot out of comparing the two.

Some overall thoughts on show (with reference to game, which apparently is sometimes unpopular here):

Overall there were few scenes which played out as good or better in the show than the game, if any. I think this is as much down to how well the original game was acted/directed, which in lots of small but impactful ways worked less well for me than the game. Interestingly the TLOU-newcomer I watched the show with often preferred the game whenever we'd take a look at the equivalent scenes, even saying things like 'oh wow that's real' and similar at some of the acting inflections and so on. I could even feel it working better on them from their reactions, even when without the surprises (as we'd only watch game stuff after show stuff).

Their overall conclusion was that both have their merits, though.

In general I thought lots of the show was directed quite straight and workman-ly, with up-close handheld dialogue stuff and in general few memorable images/compositions. But who knows how much that is because of the compare-o-vision? (also I realised I had low-tier Motion Smoothing on for the Now TV app and turned it off in the last episode! - this definitely - Definitely! - might've made it seem more basic-TV and less cinematic prestige-TV!)

By the end I was sold on Bella Ellie as something different but good to Ashley Ellie. Especially when they dropped her snarky, wisecrack shtick from early on.

Joel was further from game Joel, I think. Less commanding and in control, and more vulnerable.

Some additions like the Indonesia stuff was great. Some added nothing, I thought (like the Kansas rebellion leader stuff), and many lines/bits were changed for the worse for seemingly no reason.

Overall music use was worse in the show for The Moments

Show as a whole felt a bit small, and less of A Journey than the game. Partly because of literal time-spent-with-characters but also I think just in pacing. So endign episode felt weirdly understated and quickly resolved once they get to Fireflies. Like stepping into a room and saying Oh Sorry wrong one! before reversing out again

Some thoughts on last episode, don't bother reading if you're averse to overly-hyper-specific analysis:

Pregnancy stuff was fine, I didn't think about it enough to find it as problematic as OR did, though I get why it muddies motives and stuff a bit

Marlene's sudden walk-in and shoot of Anna was a bit naff? In general I found Marlene's acting less convincing than the game which is very strange seeing as it's the same actress!

Giraffes was great and using the same music was the right call!

Joel/Ellie's conversation ('after all I've done') straight after, with face close-ups, and Bella's acting, was probably the best the show's been and equal to the game. Great.

Suicide detail with Joel was great, but felt weirdly stage-y/game-y how they both bothered to sit and chat and look at each other then afterwards wrap-up and walk away. Especially after we just had a similar stop-and-chat moment before?

Firefly smoke bomb looked weak! And the whine-and-slow-camera aftershock was another example of it feeling like pretty TV-by-numbers in direction and feel?

Interesting in hospital room scene that Marlene didn't say vaccine (compared to 'cure') - was this so as not to alienate some viewers beyond Joel's human choice itself?

Small thing, but acting of guards was TV-tough-guy again? 'I didn't see anyone say to stop' or whatever felt written?

Joel's killing spree felt very different to the game, I thought. More uncomfortable, more of a massacre? May be his impassive expression and the music tone. Almost felt like I was watching a psychopath school-shooter spree or something. Was effective! Felt like whatever the Old Joel was capable of (the Bad Things Tommy previously referred to) had come back. I'd have to compare to the gameplay but of the game to work out why it was less sympathetic? (likely intentionally so)

Ellie's car bit was well done but seemed much clearer in the show that she clocks on to what's happened, and even Joel's explanation seems more clearly like he knows even then that she knows? Whereas in the game Ellie seems more tired and accepting. Interesting difference. But again the electro-synth thing used in game was also more effective I thought.

Joel/Ellie hike I thought was a bit weird, as Ellie is clearly distrusting/unsure, and Joel's happy enthusiasms and Sarah comparisons read so much weirder the way they shot it with him right next to her and eagerly looking towards her and correcting himself. More unnerving and unhinged. Whereas in the game he's just chatting more off-handedly whilst cracking on up ahead? Interesting difference again.

Bella-Ellie's final face-acting was basically flawless I thought. Whatever ambiguity and compromise Ashley-Ellie nailed in the game, I thought was captured here too.

Anyway I liked it, didn't love it, but got a lot out of watching it and thinking about it (and the differences).

(Unsure why The Lie is more interesting and important to people than The Choice though! Both are Significant)

PostRe: The Last of Us (TV Show) by **jiggles** » Wed Mar 15, 2023 6:22 pm

Just one thing about that car bit that kind of affects the final scene:

In the show she was conscious before the surgery but in the game she wasn’t, because she just almost drowned.

When she comes to in the car she’s like confused as to what the hell is even going on, while Joel explains that they found the fireflies and they stopped looking for a cure.

Now, in the show she asks about Marlene, but in the game she doesn’t even know that Marlene is alive or even with them there. But given that she’s wearing a hospital gown, she should know right away that Joel is lying, *except* that the last thing she actually remembers is jumping into the water to try save Joel, so he could explain that away as part of them saving her life. Though he doesn’t explain why they left dressed like that and without her stuff, so it seems fishy.

In the show, he does explain why they left like that, closing that door, but the justification that they’re not looking for a cure anymore doesn’t work if Ellie spoke knew Marlene was alive and therefore knew she was going under! I think it would have been fine to have Ellie not have known Marlene was there (and not have been conscious before the surgery) and simply left her suspicious at Joel’s really flimsy “raiders” explanation.

The ending of the game sort of pivots on Ellie choosing to believe Joel, but given how unbelievable Joel’s story now is, the ending of the show now to leans more towards her knowing he is lying and simply accepting it.

Of course, I might just be reading too much into that line. I just keep thinking everything added was changed for a reason.

PostRe: The Last of Us (TV Show) by **Imrahil** » Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:28 pm

Reading the last couple of posts, I'm so glad I watched it before playing the game. Would have been such a distraction comparing every single scene. :lol:

Gotta say, I've since watched a few game comparison clips on Youtube and I find I've preferred the show versions? Particularly after seeing Pascal's expressive close-ups and the rather glazed, expressionless game characters (which is inevitable I know, it's a 3D model). It's hard to know how to put it, but seeing real emotion in real peoples eyes has a surprisingly big effect on me as a viewer. It just introduces a whole array of new subtleties.

The Last of Us (TV Show)

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