The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild GOTG

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Green Gecko
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PostRe: The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild GOTG
by Green Gecko » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:07 pm

Ganon's death closing down the game would break so many mechanics. There would be no reason for enemies to respawn, so going back to the tonne of side quests and outstanding shrines etc would pose little challenge. I guess you could consider those things "wild" but if you kill them logically what force would be bringing them back from the dead? Ganon's power is supposed to be the reason why goblins and moblins etc are present in zelda games, because they're ganon's minions.

I prefer the completionist approach of going back to finish everything and then "proper finish" the game after. I felt in other games that there's little to keep you going after literally saving the world. That's a bit more RPGish.

I think the movement forward in this game is its fluidity and actual lack of overwhelming the player and giving you a world that is just nice to explore without a bazillion boring NPCs and story nuggets littering the place, but maybe it's a "casual" open world game, I don't know.

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PostRe: The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild GOTG
by Karl » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:07 pm

The reason I think Breath of the Wild is better than the other open-world games I've played is the variety and density of things to do in the overworld, and the way the game is mechanically geared towards making exploration fun. I think spreading out what would have been the dungeon experience across the shrines was a great way to reinforce that design philosophy.

At the risk of sounding like a goalpost moving apologist, my view on the Beasts is that they aren't even really dungeons. To me they are bigger, fancier shrines with some plot fluff around them. There is precisely one traditional dungeon in the game (Hyrule Castle) and I think it's the best dungeon Zelda has ever had -- proving that they can do it, they just didn't want to.

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PostRe: The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild GOTG
by Green Gecko » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:12 pm

I don't really rate it as a dungeon as such with puzzles etc but the atmosphere was fantastic (the music also, I think it's underrated in this game, the score is really quite innovative musically), better than the eerie sense of abandonment in previous games although you could explore a nice castle there too, it felt like a lot of corridors and doors whereas this did feel more like a gothic castle taken over by a demonic force, which was great.

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PostRe: The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild GOTG
by Tomous » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:21 pm

I dunno if I'd count Hyrule Castle a dungeon.

Don't get me wrong, it's a great location and a lot of fun to explore and battle you way through but if you prefer, there are ways you can skip the majority of it relatively easily.

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PostRe: The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild GOTG
by Green Gecko » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:31 pm

Yeah, there is little held back by same old, same old. This way it encourages you to explore every nook and cranny, not because a carrot is dangled or there's some roadblock you HAVE to solve to progress, but because you want to, is something really special about the design of this game. But maybe I'm just a zelda fan and I like the art and stuff.

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PostRe: The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild GOTG
by OrangeRakoon » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:57 pm

I would love a game that offered multiple Hyrule Castle-like dungeons. Rather than being a well designed intricate puzzle but with linear progression, Hyrule Castle excels at giving the player so many approaches to completing it, whilst still rewarding the player for exploring all of it.

It's not the best dungeon of all time though. I'm not sure what is, but OoT's Forest Temple and SS's Sandship are up there.

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PostRe: The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild GOTG
by Rax » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:42 pm

The lack of proper dungeons are my one complaint about this game, Id love to see the next game take the open world formula from Breath of the Wild and add in some proper dungeon crawling to the mix. As Rakoon said, something like Hyrule Castle where you can get through it pretty easily if you want to but there are rewards a plenty for exploring all a dungeon has to offer.

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PostRe: The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild GOTG
by Hime » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:43 pm

Karl wrote:The reason I think Breath of the Wild is better than the other open-world games I've played is the variety and density of things to do in the overworld, and the way the game is mechanically geared towards making exploration fun. I think spreading out what would have been the dungeon experience across the shrines was a great way to reinforce that design philosophy.

At the risk of sounding like a goalpost moving apologist, my view on the Beasts is that they aren't even really dungeons. To me they are bigger, fancier shrines with some plot fluff around them. There is precisely one traditional dungeon in the game (Hyrule Castle) and I think it's the best dungeon Zelda has ever had -- proving that they can do it, they just didn't want to.

Agreed ;)

I'mnot sure why they couldn't have had an overworld in which you just mop up the remaining moblins after Ganon is dead, they could have had some great last stand scenarios. You could have also mopped up the remaining side quests and shrines. If you want to play it the original way load an old save or start again.

My view is that this is a brilliant game that brings together some of the good things of Zelda to an open world environment with Nintendo's peerless design. However, calling this the best game of all time or even game of the year is when I have problems as you have to overlook so many issues.

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PostRe: The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild GOTG
by The Watching Artist » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:48 pm

Karl wrote: There is precisely one traditional dungeon in the game (Hyrule Castle)

:lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostRe: The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild GOTG
by Denster » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:51 pm

There are no more puzzles and tasks from the shrines and Beasts then any other Zelda. I classed the whole world as the dungeon. The single most astonishing one they've ever done. The game doesn't need dungeons and it was a breath (no pun intended) of fresh air to play it with no agreed agenda or path. I think a traditional structure of 5-6 dungeons would have detracted from the open world experience. The shrines and beasts enhanced it.

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PostRe: The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild GOTG
by Karl » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:51 pm

I mean, I don't feel like I'm overlooking issues when I talk about Breath of the Wild. I actively like & enjoy pretty much all the design decisions they made. Weapon degradation, rain, the inversion of dungeons into individual puzzles and minibosses in the world -- I appreciate what each of them adds to the experience.

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PostRe: The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild GOTG
by Karl » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:55 pm

The Watching Artist wrote:
Karl wrote: There is precisely one traditional dungeon in the game (Hyrule Castle)

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I legitimately don't see why that's funny. Because you can sequence break it if you want to? It's still easily the closest thing to a traditional dungeon experience in Breath of the Wild because it has all of the thematic and many of the gameplay beats of a dungeon -- a very intricate, standalone zone with its own minimap, secrets, puzzles, and minibosses in isolation from the rest of the game, that builds in difficulty to an encounter with a big bad.

If you want to be snide to someone trying to have a reasonable discussion, then how's this? Your issue with the game is that you made it boring for yourself on purpose so you could be snarky about it on the Internet, which I think is much more laughable. :simper:

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PostRe: The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild GOTG
by OrangeRakoon » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:56 pm

Denster wrote:I classed the whole world as the dungeon. The single most astonishing one they've ever done.


Nah that's Skyward Sword you're thinking of

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PostRe: The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild GOTG
by Tafdolphin » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:00 pm

strawberry float dungeons. If people want dungeons, go play Dungeon Game 7: Extreme Championship Edition: Booga that Loo.

This is the best open world game ever made. I'll take that over another underwater section with water puzzles.

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Denster
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PostRe: The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild GOTG
by Denster » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:14 pm

It's simply a case of not being able to please everyone. Nintendo answered the clamour for a fresh approach to the Zelda games and having delivered it - we get "wah wah - I want my dungeons back!

I spent 200+ hours in that world and not a single minute of it was anything other than an unalloyed delight. The challenges and time consumption of a dungeon are simply spread out over a wider area and encourage that open world exploration.

People just want to have their cake and eat it.

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PostRe: The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild GOTG
by Hime » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:16 pm

Tafdolphin wrote:strawberry float dungeons. If people want dungeons, go play Dungeon Game 7: Extreme Championship Edition: Booga that Loo.

This is the best open world game ever made. I'll take that over another underwater section with water puzzles.

But I've played an open world game before and they may not have been as good but they didn't have the bad stuff like rain and weapon degradation. I haven't played any other games with Zelda like dungeons before.

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PostRe: The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild GOTG
by Preezy » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:19 pm

Tafdolphin wrote:This is the best open world game ever made.

Better than GTA5? I dunno...

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PostRe: The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild GOTG
by Green Gecko » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:40 pm

I think these things that some of us regard as good and reasonable design that have been enjoyable and not a hindrance the vast majority of the time, that some consider big issues and not recognising them is being apologist or overlooking them or whatever.. is just a case of marmite mechanics.

I find it kind of weird that in order to be OK with some divisive mechanics you must be deliberately "enjoying" them, on purpose. I'm not. I don't have any of these issues complained about with the game and neither does my partner, a casual gamer albeit who has played a lot of Zelda games and stuff like Shenmue for hundreds of hours, so I see that as the "casual Zelda" player demographic compared to those of us that have played every single game (which includes me bar the 2nd and the DS spinoffs). What this does express clearly is that Nintendo made very real and deliberate, drastic changes to the Zelda formulae in order to create something completely different from previous games and by doing that they were going to split hairs with, what I think would be fair to call, traditionalists. I've always enjoyed the overworld and towns and exploration in Zelda games more than dungeons, they're good yes, but they often acted as roadblocks to more exploration and in some cases, where frustrating and put off weeks or even months, years of play. This never happened with BotW, so I'd say it's the most enjoyable game in the series yet for me. I guess there are maybe 2 and half classes of people who dig dungeons and overworld stuff and both. I'm probably in the last category, where the shrines provide ample puzzle solving mystery/reward elements, but the rest is just sublime exploration.

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PostRe: The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild GOTG
by The Watching Artist » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:46 pm

Karl wrote:
The Watching Artist wrote:
Karl wrote: There is precisely one traditional dungeon in the game (Hyrule Castle)

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I legitimately don't see why that's funny. Because you can sequence break it if you want to? It's still easily the closest thing to a traditional dungeon experience in Breath of the Wild because it has all of the thematic and many of the gameplay beats of a dungeon -- a very intricate, standalone zone with its own minimap, secrets, puzzles, and minibosses in isolation from the rest of the game, that builds in difficulty to an encounter with a big bad.

If you want to be snide to someone trying to have a reasonable discussion, then how's this? Your issue with the game is that you made it boring for yourself on purpose so you could be snarky about it on the Internet, which I think is much more laughable. :simper:

Probably because to me the beasts actually feel more like dungeons then the castle. Puzzles within puzzles that tried to at least ask you to work it out the 3D space. You need to understand how the pieces fit together. To me I think of the castle as just more of the overworld. And you cant sequence break the castle because there is no sequence. You just go to the top. There is no reason to actually go around the castle beyond curiosity. Not a bad thing as such. But not a dungeon. In the beasts you at least have to do a series of objectives to be allowed access to the boss. Also a miniboss should ideally be something unique. Not another thing I've fought well over a dozen times already. :P

If I found BotW boring at any point it then its because the game let me and because its added guff made it a long winded chore at times. Zelda is my fav game series and has been for a very long time. Like others I waited ages for it. I do not enjoy criticising it for the sake of it. I'm glad people love it. I just wish I did the way I love the others. It is by far the best open world game made as far as I'm concerned. It just to me Zelda isn't an open world game and by making it one its diluted things I enjoyed about it and embraced things I'm less keen on.
OrangeRakoon wrote:
Denster wrote:I classed the whole world as the dungeon. The single most astonishing one they've ever done.


Nah that's Skyward Sword you're thinking of

Indeed. One that is broken into sections though.
Denster wrote:The challenges and time consumption of a dungeon are simply spread out over a wider area

this is the thing for me. Part of the joy I had with a dungeon is I could sit down for an hour or so and just tackle dungeon things. In BotW I might find a shrine that last a few mins and then not find another for about 30 mins (during which I had to climb and fight the same things over and over) and then I'd get another shrine that maybe last 10 mins. And thats if there even is something to do in a shrine and not just a chest. There was this one shrine I did, had a really cool idea but it was super simple, that probably lasted less time then it took to load in and out. It was also incredibly disappointing to not see the same idea then developed into something more interesting and complex later on. By breaking all these things up I found each tiny chink less satisfying and less engaging. So I finished BotW with an itch that never got properly scratched even if you can argue that all the "content" was there.

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PostRe: The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild GOTG
by The Watching Artist » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:54 pm

Green Gecko wrote:I've always enjoyed the overworld and towns and exploration in Zelda games more than dungeons, they're good yes, but they often acted as roadblocks to more exploration and in some cases, where frustrating and put off weeks or even months, years of play. This never happened with BotW

This is part of I missed so much. When I played OOT for the first time I put it down at a few points. Dondongos Cavern for a week. Forest Temple for months and I left it after the Water Temple for a while to (actually for aaaaaaaaaages but that was due to a friend effectively stealing my copy of the game). Even though this didn't happen with later entries as I got gud they still felt like they were the moments I became the hero of legend. It's where I got stuck in and proved my worth. Then I moved onto the next part with more options and skills. This rarely happened in BotW for me.

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