The Money Thread...

[jiggles]

Don't think so. Pleading (genuine) ignorance isn't going to work, and they specifically list not receiving notifications from HMRC as an invalid reason for appeal. I can't see any way they're going to say this wasn't my own fault.

It's dick. With the double-taxation treaty between UK and RoI, my balance for the last five years would be zero, but though late declarations, I'm fined about £7500.

[Herdanos]

Wait, so the £7.5k isn't tax that you've underpaid historically, that's fines?

[Rhubarb]

It's such a shitty set up, load of paper work which effectively results in you owing them nothing anyway. I don't get the logic for punitive fines of £7500 either - they haven't been missing out on money from you ffs. Sounds absolutely shite man, hopefully if you speak to them there's some sort of arrangement to be had

[Grumpy David]

Ah man that strawberry floating sucks! Sorry mayne.

You're talking about RoI not Norn Iron? And you live in RoI and earn your income there yet you're liable to pay tax to HMRC still? Or have I misunderstood?

[jiggles]

Wait, so the £7.5k isn't tax that you've underpaid historically, that's fines?

Yeah, just in fines. I'm guessing the amount because I don't have access to the self-assessment portal yet, and the only correspondence I've had is when a letter from a debt collection agency arrived today demanding £2,600. The letter didn't even mention what it was for (just that it was owed to HMRC), so I called them directly and was told it was for the 2011/2012 tax year, so I've still got to see the fines for 2012/2013, 2013/2014, 2014/2015 and now 2015/2016 (I decided not to ask for those on the phone). On their website they list the penalty for being 12 months late as £1,600, so it could be in even higher than my guess.

I pay more tax on my earnings than I would if I was employed in the UK, so all the late returns are going to amount to zero underpaid tax.

The killer is that it was entirely avoidable. I thought the double-taxation agreement meant that Revenue forwarded info to HMRC, but if I had been educated just a little about my requirements I would have been filing this whole time. I also tried to update my contact details with HMRC multiple times over the past few years, but was told by their online system, and over the phone, that I wasn't giving them the correct details, and gave up. And *that* was because, through all these years, I'd thought the first digit of my National Insurance number was a 3 when it was actually a 7.

[jiggles]

Ah man that strawberry floating sucks! Sorry mayne.

You're talking about RoI not Norn Iron? And you live in RoI and earn your income there yet you're liable to pay tax to HMRC still? Or have I misunderstood?

I work in RoI and live in NI, but I'm basically not liable to pay HMRC tax. Just declare what I earned and that I paid tax on it already.

[Herdanos]

Surely that cannot be right. You owe nothing in tax. You say it yourself, you're not liable to pay HMRC tax.

Do they have reasons for appeal listed on their website that you can choose from?

[jiggles]

Surely that cannot be right. You owe nothing in tax. You say it yourself, you're not liable to pay HMRC tax.

Do they have reasons for appeal listed on their website that you can choose from?

They do!

What may count as a reasonable excuse

A reasonable excuse is normally something unexpected or outside your control that stopped you meeting a tax obligation, eg:

- your partner or another close relative died shortly before the tax return or payment deadline
- you had an unexpected stay in hospital that prevented you from dealing with your tax affairs
- you had a serious or life-threatening illness
- your computer or software failed just before or while you were preparing your online return
- service issues with HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) online services
- a fire, flood or theft prevented you from completing your tax return
- postal delays that you couldn’t have predicted

What won’t count as a reasonable excuse

The following won’t be accepted as a reasonable excuse:

- you relied on someone else to send your return and they didn’t
- your cheque bounced or payment failed because you didn’t have enough money
- you found the HMRC online system too difficult to use
- you didn’t get a reminder from HMRC

And a zero bill still incurs a fine if your assessment is filed late.

[That's not a growth]

Is there some way you could bull gooseberry fool it so that "service issues with HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) online services" is plausible with the issues you had that you mentioned?

[jiggles]

Well, I mean I could *try* to say the reason I couldn't update my address with them was down to a system error on their part, but it's impossible to prove (doubly so because it isn't the truth).

[Herdanos]

What won’t count as a reasonable excuse

The following won’t be accepted as a reasonable excuse:

- you relied on someone else to send your return and they didn’t
- your cheque bounced or payment failed because you didn’t have enough money
- you found the HMRC online system too difficult to use
- you didn’t get a reminder from HMRC

But none of these are the reason that you didn't complete a return.
The reason you didn't complete a return is because you are:

- not self employed
- not liable to pay HMRC tax
- paying tax through your current employer

working in Ireland and living in the UK means you have to file a separate self-assessment form every year with HMRC.

How well publicised is this?
Because I know it says "you didn't get a reminder from HMRC = not acceptable as a reasonable excuse"
However, if your employer did not mention this to you, and it is not widely publicised, then it's fair to say that there was no reasonable way that you could have known.

[RockerShaun]

Thinking of opening a Santander help to buy ISA. I had been looking to buy a house so didn't see the need, but with all this Brexit stuff going on, figure it'd be best to hold off for a bit and see if there's a crash in house prices and what effect it will have on taking out a mortgage. Any recommendations. I have also heard about this new lifetime ISA that's apparently due to launch next April. Worth just waiting for that?

[That's not a growth]

I had a look at money saving expert the other day before I set up my ISA with virgin and they say it's not worth waiting. I'd give the site a look if I were you.

[Grumpy David]

Ah man that strawberry floating sucks! Sorry mayne.

You're talking about RoI not Norn Iron? And you live in RoI and earn your income there yet you're liable to pay tax to HMRC still? Or have I misunderstood?

I work in RoI and live in NI, but I'm basically not liable to pay HMRC tax. Just declare what I earned and that I paid tax on it already.

I'm an accountant.

Maybe Eighthours will be able to help?

[jiggles]

The reason you didn't complete a return is because you are:

- not self employed
- not liable to pay HMRC tax
- paying tax through your current employer

Well, I'm not liable to pay HMRC tax, but there are situations in which I could be liable, which is the purpose of the self-assessment.

working in Ireland and living in the UK means you have to file a separate self-assessment form every year with HMRC.

How well publicised is this?
Because I know it says "you didn't get a reminder from HMRC = not acceptable as a reasonable excuse"
However, if your employer did not mention this to you, and it is not widely publicised, then it's fair to say that there was no reasonable way that you could have known.

Obviously not well enough for me to know it, but my knowledge of "tax 'n' gooseberry fool" is a pretty big blind spot anyway. My employment/residence situation is a pretty fringe case to start with, but asking some locals in the same boat today, everyone seems to have some shady gooseberry fool going on with using other people's addresses/names that they're not exactly the kind of group that would care enough to know.

[Eighthours]

My advice is to call HMRC on 0300 200 3310 (or +44 161 931 9070 from outside the UK) and explain the situation to them in detail. Make a list of points beforehand that you can refer to as you talk to them.

As you will only be submitting nil returns, there is at least a chance that your call may be passed to a sympathetic person who will disregard the ridiculous penalties, as these penalties are designed to catch people who owe tax but don't inform/pay. The debt collection agency, of course, won't be offering you a way out - they have 'bought' the debt from HMRC, but HMRC can still get it cancelled. Sorry to hear you're in this situation.

[Glowy69]

Thinking of opening a Santander help to buy ISA. I had been looking to buy a house so didn't see the need, but with all this Brexit stuff going on, figure it'd be best to hold off for a bit and see if there's a crash in house prices and what effect it will have on taking out a mortgage. Any recommendations. I have also heard about this new lifetime ISA that's apparently due to launch next April. Worth just waiting for that?

The help to buy isa is the same everywhere. Ignore the interest rate, as its the bonus you want, the lifetime isa you'll be able to have from next april anyway as its a new tax year.

[Green Gecko]

The trouble with HMRC and tax knowledge generally in this country is that it is assumed everyone knows already (even though it is now where in the curriculum in form of personal financial literacy) what their obligations are under law or are capable of teaching themselves everything they need to know, short of being (a) an accountant (b) paying for one, when you absolutely do not need to.

This leads to situations like this where the individual is completely innocent of any tax evasion. So I sympathise.

The reason the HMRC fines are so big is that they assume you must know what your obligations are and when you are late they fine you successive amounts for every day that you do not file. Over several years this becomes a ridiculous amount.

I was in a similar situation where my tax liability was miscalculated by at least £5000 due to a "system error" and I was then fined for a late filing after being entered into the self assessment system by HMRC because it was the only way they could collect the amount (which didn't exist). Not only that but I had to pay the fine on a credit card so that they would not fine me even more in the time it would have taken them to realise their own mistake. The best thing to do is to phone them up or refer to all the correspondence you have with any reasonable explanations outlined in full with references to relevant tax years and amounts in a letter along with an appeal form. If a case worker looks at your plight favourably it might be written off.

[Drumstick]

Doesn't Devlin work for HMRC? He may be able to help.

...

[Cheeky Devlin]

Doesn't Devlin work for HMRC? He may be able to help.

...

Someone called?