Panama Papers - America, fraud yeah! [UPDATE]Pakistani PM DQ'd from holding public office

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Eighthours
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PostRe: The Panama Papers - FIFA! Putin! <]:^D's dad!! (Not in it together but leak shows how they, and many others, hid £bn
by Eighthours » Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:40 pm



It's amazing that Cal hasn't yet figured out that Paul Mason would be the ace in his 'Biased BBC' argument! Man, since Mason left Channel 4 (where he was for a couple of years after Newsnight), he's really let that impartality shine through!

Paul Mason wrote:Not giving a gooseberry fool — about industries, jobs or social consequences — is at the heart of the ideology the political elite has learned since they were at private school.


*Rolls eyes* Of course they give a gooseberry fool, it's just that the answers to the questions from the right-leaning side of the political elite are different to those on the left (and the rather large private school intake of those on the left!). I wonder what Mason thinks about grammar schools, considering he went to one.

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PostRe: The Panama Papers - FIFA! Putin! <]:^D's dad!! (Not in it together but leak shows how they, and many others, hid £bn
by TigaSefi » Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:45 pm

When I went to Port Talbot for the Dragon Ride, I too was taken aback about how reliant everyone is on the steel industry and that it is basically a gooseberry fool hole. I fear for South Wales in that respect that something has to be done to provide an alternative career option. This is what the government(s) failed to provide.

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Cal
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PostRe: The Panama Papers - FIFA! Putin! <]:^D's dad!! (Not in it together but leak shows how they, and many others, hid £bn
by Cal » Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:30 pm

Eighthours wrote:
Poser wrote:I don't think there's a massive difference between, for example, the bailouts for the steel industry that people have been baying for, and the Government willfully turning a blind eye to tax avoidance in order to help the private sector prosper.


The proposed steel industry bailout is an example of how a wish not to be on the end of negative PR can beat out common sense. That plant is losing a million pounds a day. If this wasn't an industry with an emotive history, particularly considering the echoes of what happened to communities after the mines closed down, there's no way that anyone would be considering such a move. The number of jobs being lost is barely a flicker on the economic landscape. That's not to say that nothing should be done to help the community, not at all. Just that the idea of keeping a clearly failing business alive with taxpayers' money isn't good economics, sets a bad precedent, and is completely anti the attitude of people were, say, Starbucks laying off a thousand workers. And no, this is nothing like bailing out the banks.


At this point I'll just mention 'green subsidies' - essentially taxes used to prop up an unprofitable industry... for what reason, exactly?

UK Government 'pays £6bn a year in subsidies to fossil fuel industry'
Research shows figure paid to firms like BP and Shell is almost twice that provided to green energy providers

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 30946.html

It's the wrong argument. Why are we paying any taxpayer money to industries that cannot pay their own way - you know, just like the steel industry (which, incidentally, has been partially crippled by the UK's inflated energy prices and I wonder why that is..?)..?

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PostRe: The Panama Papers - FIFA! Putin! <]:^D's dad!! (Not in it together but leak shows how they, and many others, hid £bn
by Green Gecko » Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:57 pm

The reason Cal, and you never have a response to this, is to reduce our reliance on fossil fuels. You can entirely disregard the fact (or debate in your view) of global warming and still not refute the fact that the sun, for example, lasts longer than fossil fuels. Hell, even that is a finite resource. To ignore this completely is literally the makings of a mass poverty if not extinction.

"It should be common sense to just accept the message Nintendo are sending out through their actions."
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PostRe: The Panama Papers - FIFA! Putin! <]:^D's dad!! (Not in it together but leak shows how they, and many others, hid £bn
by Fade » Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:16 pm

Green Gecko wrote:As far as I understand, journalists can publish anything that could be in the public interest and can't be proven to be false at that time (rarely a burden on proving something is true these days), especially when it comes to public, often elected government officials. Also, in most countries, incorporated bodies (ie companies) have public records, in fact there's no such thing as a private company. That's one reason tax havens and shell companies are used - to obfuscate assets. Private money is only private if you don't incorporate. Of course, you can't be a sole corporate entity (your self by name) in another country unless you're a citizen there, meaning you have to pay tax on your earnings wherever they come from. But move them overseas or generate those profits under a different set of laws but still be able to eventually draw those funds or spend them overseas, and you necessarily don't pay tax on that.. That's the general idea anyway.

The morale implication is that everyone should pay a fair share of tax relative to their earnings, as the wealth has been generated largely at the expense of others anyway, for the "greater good". It seems fair to me, at least, thaf profits made in the UK should pay back into the UK treasury. And don't forget, we're not usually talking about one or two people's salaries or share value in a company, we're talking about keeping massive wealth within corporate entities, with the potential to slowly pay out millions or even billions of dollars in salary or dividends to thousands of other shareholders (which can be individuals or other companies, themselves owned by yet more companies), without paying into the treasury for the betterment of society and the poor and sick. We're talking about companies simply sitting on hundreds of billions of dollars, more than any state in the world, that could stave off world hunger or eradicate an endemic or house the poor or endless other things if even a proportion of that wealth was actually used for something beneficiary instead of generating yet more wealth. Least that could be done is pay proper taxes.

Or just raze the entire system built to generate massive wealth disparity.

That's the entire stupid strawberry floating point of Capitalism though. The system which 90% of the world is based on. I'm not saying we should all be communists, but the current system is clearly pretty strawberry floated.

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PostRe: The Panama Papers - FIFA! Putin! <]:^D's dad!! (Not in it together but leak shows how they, and many others, hid £bn
by Lex-Man » Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:48 pm

Urrm Cal why are you having a go at green energy and then linking to an article on fossil fuel subsidiaries?

Also I'm guessing that those companies would all make money independently but the government is giving the money to help economic growth and job creation. Or at least that s what they would tell you.

EDIT: BP for example had 157 billion dollars in 2015 so while 5 billion is probably nice for them, it's hardly the difference between them shutting shop and holding together.

Amusement under late capitalism is the prolongation of work.
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PostRe: The Panama Papers - FIFA! Putin! <]:^D's dad!! (Not in it together but leak shows how they, and many others, hid £bn
by Poser » Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:02 pm

Cal wrote:
At this point I'll just mention 'green subsidies' - essentially taxes used to prop up an unprofitable industry... for what reason, exactly?

UK Government 'pays £6bn a year in subsidies to fossil fuel industry'
Research shows figure paid to firms like BP and Shell is almost twice that provided to green energy providers

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 30946.html

It's the wrong argument. Why are we paying any taxpayer money to industries that cannot pay their own way - you know, just like the steel industry (which, incidentally, has been partially crippled by the UK's inflated energy prices and I wonder why that is..?)..?


That post is all over the place, Cal.

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PostRe: The Panama Papers - FIFA! Putin! <]:^D's dad!! (Not in it together but leak shows how they, and many others, hid £bn
by Cal » Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:19 pm

Fade wrote:That's the entire stupid strawberry floating point of Capitalism though. The system which 90% of the world is based on. I'm not saying we should all be communists, but the current system is clearly pretty strawberry floated.


No, it's not.


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PostRe: The Panama Papers - FIFA! Putin! <]:^D's dad!! (Not in it together but leak shows how they, and many others, hid £bn
by Green Gecko » Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:32 pm

Actually Hypertext and the Internet were invented by scientists and hundreds of people so I don't think an economic model can be attributed to that. Capitalism certainly aids and inspires innovation in many ways but it's not the root cause of global innovation.

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PostRe: The Panama Papers - FIFA! Putin! <]:^D's dad!! (Not in it together but leak shows how they, and many others, hid £bn
by Fade » Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:37 pm

That was a good video.

It's still pretty strawberry floated though. Like I said, I don't think communism is the answer, not in the slightest. But the distribution of wealth in the world is ridiculously messed up. And look at all of the pseudo monopolies we have. There are a lot of industries with only a few big companies who often buy up smaller companies (Gaming, film, confectionery) . Obviously people should be rewarded for hard work and success, but not to the extent that can exist in some situations. I think a law limiting pay based on the lowest paid member of your company could work.

That is the goal of capitalism though. Make money to make more money, at the cost of almost everything else. Look at companies like Apple with billions of dollars in reserve. They don't use that money to improve the life of their factory workers. They use it to make more money. Look at some of the gooseberry fool Nestle has done, or Tobacco companies, or a gooseberry fool load of clothing brands. Capitalism is literally causing global warming because people value money and convenience more than the planet. Again, I'm not a socialist but capitalism needs some major tweaks.

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PostRe: The Panama Papers - FIFA! Putin! <]:^D's dad!! (Not in it together but leak shows how they, and many others, hid £bn
by Cal » Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:59 pm

Fade wrote:That was a good video.

It's still pretty strawberry floated though. Like I said, I don't think communism is the answer, not in the slightest. But the distribution of wealth in the world is ridiculously messed up. And look at all of the pseudo monopolies we have. There are a lot of industries with only a few big companies who often buy up smaller companies (Gaming, film, confectionery) . Obviously people should be rewarded for hard work and success, but not to the extent that can exist in some situations. I think a law limiting pay based on the lowest paid member of your company could work.

That is the goal of capitalism though. Make money to make more money, at the cost of almost everything else. Look at companies like Apple with billions of dollars in reserve. They don't use that money to improve the life of their factory workers. They use it to make more money. Look at some of the gooseberry fool Nestle has done, or Tobacco companies, or a gooseberry fool load of clothing brands. Capitalism is literally causing global warming because people value money and convenience more than the planet. Again, I'm not a socialist but capitalism needs some major tweaks.


I won't go into your views on 'global warming' because this isn't the place (and I'm not allowed), but as far as Apple goes...well, they are a very liberal-facing corporation. (Saint) Steve Jobs was a liberal hero - I know, yet another example of a $billionaire progressive worshipped uncritically by the left because he espoused the 'correct' values and opinions, but hey-ho. The fact Apple have an appalling record in some of their production facilities in far-away parts of the world...well, Apple says they're cleaning up their act, so who are we to argue? - besides, their ads are sooooo coool!.

I do think you're confusing capitalism with crony corporatism* (which was, incidentally, the point of my earlier post about taxpayer 'green subsidies' to the big fossil fuel providers). Crony corporatism really took off here in the UK in the Blair years - it became, as Common Purpose took a hold, pretty much the way to Get Stuff Done and sadly it's pretty much here to stay. Crony corporatism is big fossil fuel providers cosying up to government for taxpayer money so it can greenwash itself in public. Stuff like that. Pretty much all of the welfare state, the NHS, prison service, etc, is now some form of crony corporatism or other. If you need to be angry at anyone or any system, I suggest you'd be perhaps better served directing your ire at crony corporate lobbyists with an inside track to government (and policy) both here and especially in Brussels and Strasbourg.

Looking over to the USA, one of the reasons I can't stand Hillary is because she is very much the personification of a crony corporatists' wish-fulfilment. Sanders is at least an honest socialist (a logical impossibility, granted, but I'll run with it), but Clinton will jump into bed with crony corporatists left, right and centre. You really should look into the murky, shady (some might say criminal) history of the Anointed One. Clinton has no answers for the American public: just more of the same discredited, greedy liberal progressive corporate cronyism that has served their country - and by extension the world - so badly for so long now.

*Also sometimes called 'crony capitalism' or 'corporate welfare'. More here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crony_capitalism

Last edited by Cal on Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Eighthours
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PostRe: The Panama Papers - FIFA! Putin! <]:^D's dad!! (Not in it together but leak shows how they, and many others, hid £bn
by Eighthours » Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:07 pm

Fade wrote:That is the goal of capitalism though. Make money to make more money, at the cost of almost everything else. Look at companies like Apple with billions of dollars in reserve. They don't use that money to improve the life of their factory workers. They use it to make more money. Look at some of the gooseberry fool Nestle has done, or Tobacco companies, or a gooseberry fool load of clothing brands. Capitalism is literally causing global warming because people value money and convenience more than the planet. Again, I'm not a socialist but capitalism needs some major tweaks.


I don't think it's the goal of responsible capitalism. Take the company I run: we need to make a profit each year and so we continually push for more business and keep overheads as low as reasonably possible. But in order to achieve our goal of an upwards curve in terms of profits each year, it makes sense for us to provide an environment where staff feel fulfilled and as happy as they can be while facing the soul-destroying prospect of having to actually work 5 days a week. This includes making the office a nice place to work in, for salaries to be fair, and to be as supportive to each other as possible. All this supports our ultimate goal of making more money, enabling us to not only employ more people but keep them happier.

The bottom line is helped by policies that go beyond the bottom line. The gooseberry fool companies out there would likely make more money in the end if they moved past the sweatshop approach as the way to do business.

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PostRe: The Panama Papers - FIFA! Putin! <]:^D's dad!! (Not in it together but leak shows how they, and many others, hid £bn
by 7256930752 » Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:51 pm

Cal wrote:Why are we paying any taxpayer money to industries that cannot pay their own way - you know, just like the steel industry (which, incidentally, has been partially crippled by the UK's inflated energy prices and I wonder why that is..?)..?

Firstly, the UK doesn't have inflated energy prices, steel processing plants just use a gooseberry fool load of energy. Secondly, the reason steel from China is cheap is because their government is subsidising it. Thirdly, the UK government needs to look at more than just profitably as a factor in the steel plants closing down.

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PostRe: The Panama Papers - FIFA! Putin! <]:^D's dad!! (Not in it together but leak shows how they, and many others, hid £bn
by Cal » Tue Apr 05, 2016 5:12 pm

A certain delicious irony in the first big-name casualty of this sorry affair being a full-on liberal progressive Prime Minister allied with The Greens.

Panama Papers: Iceland prime minister resigns

The prime minister of Iceland has resigned - the first major casualty of the Panama Papers leaks which have shed an embarrassing spotlight on the world of offshore finance. The leaks, from Panama law firm Mossack Fonseca, showed PM Sigmundur Gunnlaugsson owned an offshore company, Wintris, with his wife. He was accused of concealing millions of dollars worth of family assets. A big protest was held in front of parliament in Iceland on Monday. Reports suggest the agriculture minister will be the new PM.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news

Goddam capitalist swine! :lol:

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PostRe: The Panama Papers - FIFA! Putin! <]:^D's dad!! (Not in it together but leak shows how they, and many others, hid £bn
by Green Gecko » Tue Apr 05, 2016 5:16 pm

I'm "left" by most descriptions despite being a businessperson but by no means do I think Steve Jobs was a good person shielded from criticism.

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PostRe: The Panama Papers - FIFA! Putin! <]:^D's dad!! (Not in it together but leak shows how they, and many others, hid £bn
by Winckle » Tue Apr 05, 2016 5:56 pm

It would be nice if we stopped referring to "the left" as a monolithic entity. Anarchists and Socialists could both be said to be left wing, but grouping them together is rather pointless.

We should migrate GRcade to Flarum. :toot:
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PostRe: The Panama Papers - FIFA! Putin! <]:^D's dad!! (Not in it together but leak shows how they, and many others, hid £bn
by Rocsteady » Tue Apr 05, 2016 6:47 pm

I'm pretty left-wing and Steve Jobs was a selfish knob-end.

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PostRe: The Panama Papers - FIFA! Putin! <]:^D's dad!! (Not in it together but leak shows how they, and many others, hid £bn
by Skippy » Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:02 pm

twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/717411826686959616




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PostRe: The Panama Papers - FIFA! Putin! <]:^D's dad!! (Not in it together but leak shows how they, and many others, hid £bn
by Meep » Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:17 pm

When I start seeing mass protests and riots in the streets, then I will maybe believe things will change because it would take something amounting to a revolution to overturn the amount of vested interests in the world financial system. The system cannot reform itself from within because the system, even the legal system underpinning it, is corrupt and designed in the interests of those who benefit from it as it exists now. Any promises from existing authorities are doomed to failure from the outset because they will be designed to fail. The rhetoric you are likely to hear about tax avoidance is that it is a bug, but actually it is a feature; the political and legal insitutions around the world are designed to allow for their existence in order to benefit the dominant part of society.

The unfortunate thing about this is that it would be mean things would need to get much worse before the opperunity for them to get better could arrive.

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PostRe: The Panama Papers - FIFA! Putin! <]:^D's dad!! (Not in it together but leak shows how they, and many others, hid £bn
by Memento Mori » Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:27 pm

Saint of Killers wrote:Are Guardian being hypocrites if their owners are engaged in avoidance but this leak deals with evasion, hidden assets and possible illegal practices?

But if there is anything dodgy going on with Guardian owners and their off-shore practices, then this is one hell of a target they're painting on themselves. :slol:


http://www.theguardian.com/media/2008/may/03/1
Guardian Media Group, the parent company of the Guardian newspaper, has used an offshore structure to complete its acquisition of Emap's trade magazine and events interests, in partnership with the private equity firm Apax partners. The deal, completed March 20, 2008, involved GMG incorporating a new company in the tax haven of the Cayman Islands and integrating it with an existing network of Cayman companies set up at the same time by the private equity firm.


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