The Politics Thread 4

[Rax]

I always wonder how outlawing making political parties might work, so every representative is an independent candidate, you vote for the person who fits your view the best. They have no party allegiances, noone votes for someone just because they like the party their with, motions are passed and defeated based on what members personally believe instead of voting along party lines. Theres a myriad of problems that would proabbly make it unworkable but its an interesting thought experiment.

I’ve thought about that before, but I just don’t see how it would ever be workable. People will naturally band together into groups that believe in the same things, you might get rid of parties, but I think you’d generally end up with people in the same camps that they are now.

It might make it a lot easier for MPs to switch between issues although I imagine they would tie themselves up in alliances (“you vote to privatise the NHS and I will support you in bringing back the workhouse”) which would be hard to break.

Plus it would involve people actually bothering to look at who the candidates are, I think a large number of people wouldn’t bother and would end up not voting at all.

You'd also have the question of who would be the actual Prime Minister. Like it or not, you need a single leader in order to interact on the world stage.

Mp's could put themselves forward for individual jobs in the cabinet. I'm not sure it's a good idea really thought.

Yeah thats why it would only really work as a thought experiment, even without parties people will band together and form alliances, even if they disagreed on certain issues, just to push certain things through. You woudlnt necessarily need a PM to come from the parliament, you could have a directly elected PM to represent the nation at international events and the parliament could elect people to ministries to ensure theres accountability in those things as well. Again, its very unworkable but something that is interesting to consider.

[OrangeRKN]

In my opinion our election system isn't fit for purpose but I can't think of one that doesn't also have its own problems and would necessarily be better. It would be great actually elect our prime minister but I'm not sure how without the risk of having an elected prime minster but a larger number of MPs belonging to another party. Similar to how you get in the US with a president from one party but the house and Senate controlled by the other party.

Every voting system has its problems but FPTP is pretty much the worst, it's annoying no end that any attempt to change it has people homing in on the issues with the proposed alternative despite the fact that a non-trivial perfect voting system has been mathematically proven as an impossibility.

[Moggy]

In my opinion our election system isn't fit for purpose but I can't think of one that doesn't also have its own problems and would necessarily be better. It would be great actually elect our prime minister but I'm not sure how without the risk of having an elected prime minster but a larger number of MPs belonging to another party. Similar to how you get in the US with a president from one party but the house and Senate controlled by the other party.

Every voting system has its problems but FPTP is pretty much the worst, it's annoying no end that any attempt to change it has people homing in on the issues with the proposed alternative despite the fact that a non-trivial perfect voting system has been mathematically proven as an impossibility.

I think the AV referendum was another way the Lib Dems let down the country during the coalition. They should have insisted on a proper PR vote, rather than the crappy AV one.

Even then though, AV would have been preferable to our current FPTP shite.

[OrangeRKN]

I prefer AV to PR, but the referendum should have been neither

The referendum should have been "Do you think the voting system should change". If that came back yes, then get people to vote again on what to change it to.

Although maybe you need a vote in the middle there to first decide on which voting system to use to decide on which voting system to use...

[Moggy]

I prefer AV to PR, but the referendum should have been neither

The referendum should have been "Do you think the voting system should change". If that came back yes, then get people to vote again on what to change it to.

Although maybe you need a vote in the middle there to first decide on which voting system to use to decide on which voting system to use...

The trouble with that (which I think you alluded to) is that people detest having more than one vote. People would end up voting to not change the voting system, just so that they could stop a further referendum in a few months time.

[OrangeRKN]

Voting reform is a hard sell, we shouldn't be approaching it from the top down anyway. It should start by changing at the local level, then work up as people get used to it/realise it works a lot better. If the EU had tried harder to engage people politically it could have won support for both the institution and for PR as a voting system. Now I'm hopeful the change can come from council elections and devolved parliaments. The police commissioner votes could have been sold a lot better in that regard, as a demonstration of a better voting system.

[That]

We shouldn't need to have a referendum to scrap FPTP. Most people will never understand why it's important anyway. The next time we get a left-leaning government they should just do it.

[Moggy]

We shouldn't need to have a referendum to scrap FPTP. Most people will never understand why it's important anyway. The next time we get a left-leaning government they should just do it.

The trouble is the government in power has usually benefitted from the FPTP system. Blair won convincingly in 1997 with 43.2% of the vote, compared to the Tories 30.7%. But Labour got 418 seats and the Tories only got 165 seats. A 13% higher share of the vote gets 253 extra seats?

One day we might get somebody in charge that is forced to do it due to campaign promises made, but once in power I don’t see many people wanting to change it.

[That]

There is definitely a problem with this issue with short-term thinking once a government actually comes to power, aye. But I think if people weren't so hung up on this issue needing a referendum, eventually someone might wake up and think 'ah, even though in a rerun my majority would decrease slightly today, in the long-term my party would do better more consistently...' and then we're away.

I admit it's hard to visualise that kind of shrewd and competent long-term planning from a British government today, though.

[Lagamorph]

As bad as our system is I think I'd still take it over the American system.

[KK]

Trinity Mirror has said the acquisition will deliver £20m in cost savings by 2020, largely through reduced duplication and improved content sharing.

Trinity Mirror chief executive Simon Fox told the BBC: “There will over time be job cuts, because we are going to remove duplication, mainly in back offices functions. We are bringing two very similar businesses together and when you do that, inevitably there is a certain amount of duplication.”

“From the journalism perspective, by pooling our resources, instead of, for example, sending two reporters from two titles to the same football game, we can send them to two different games and get more breadth of coverage.”

He said that editorial decisions would be left “entirely in the hands” of editors and that the titles would retain their editorial independence, adding: “The Daily Express is not going to become left-wing, the Mirror is not going to become right-wing.”

I do wonder if the quality of the editorial will improve at all though.

[Hypes]

I wonder if it will be still 10p cheaper than the Daily Mail

[Moggy]

I wonder if it will be still 10p cheaper than the Daily Mail

Yes but it will now be twenty times better.

[KK]

You'd think they would have removed it by now. That trick may work once, but surely everyone knows it's a con and the paper isn't actually 10p.

[Hypes]

These are Express readers we're talking about

[Vermilion]

I do wonder if the quality of the editorial will improve at all though.

But, it's the 'DON'T GO OUTSIDE, EVER! IT'S HORRIBLE OUT THERE!' editorial pieces which the readers lap up on a daily basis, why change what the punters enjoy?

[Regginator3]

So, what's the political makeup of GRCade? SONM was pretty far left, curious to see if it's the same here.

As for me, I don't really align with any party any more. Even though I voted Labour last June (though it was almost entirely because my former Tory MP was terrible rather than anything against Conservatism itself), I've quickly found myself preferring the Conservatives to Labour again.

[DML]

So, what's the political makeup of GRCade? SONM was pretty far left, curious to see if it's the same here.

As for me, I don't really align with any party any more. Even though I voted Labour last June (though it was almost entirely because my former Tory MP was terrible rather than anything against Conservatism itself), I've quickly found myself preferring the Conservatives to Labour again.

How? This is comfortably the worst government in modern history. I honestly don't know how any other option could be worse TBH.

[Regginator3]

So, what's the political makeup of GRCade? SONM was pretty far left, curious to see if it's the same here.

As for me, I don't really align with any party any more. Even though I voted Labour last June (though it was almost entirely because my former Tory MP was terrible rather than anything against Conservatism itself), I've quickly found myself preferring the Conservatives to Labour again.

How? This is comfortably the worst government in modern history. I honestly don't know how any other option could be worse TBH.

I wouldn't go that far as to say they're the worst government in modern history.

They're bungling Brexit negotiations, but let's be honest, which party wouldn't? It's basically an unwinnable scenario. Labour would be 10x worse in this position, especially considering Corbyn's ardent Brexit love clashing with his largely pro-Remain colleagues. It would be even more catastrophic than the current situation in the Tory government which is almost 50/50 on the issue.

The reason the Labour option would also be worse is because of the far-left takeover of the Labour NEC. I honestly thought after June it would be a bigger loss for them, Corbyn would go, and Labour would rediscover it's centrist principles again. Clearly that didn't happen, and it's actually getting more and more entrenched. That, and, (just generally) socialism not working. Their economic plan is actually hideous at this point.

[That]

So, what's the political makeup of GRCade? SONM was pretty far left, curious to see if it's the same here.

Interestingly, RichardUK also popped in to ask this!

We've done opinion polls recently(ish). 80% of GRcade prefers Remain, and 90% expressed intention to vote against the Tories in the last general election.