The Politics Thread 4

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Regginator3
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Regginator3 » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:46 pm

Moggy wrote:Regg, there’s another thread for the boring tax stuff.

That was about morality ;)

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by OrangeRKN » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:52 pm

Karl wrote:I still don't really understand the urge to seek moral 'soundbites' though.

If you end up saying "x would be wrong if it weren't for the context which justifies x", it just means x as it exists in that context isn't actually wrong, surely?


I think it's useful to be aware of the justification, as that informs attitude towards taxation. Plenty of people try to minimise the tax that they pay (it seems to roughly correlate with how much you earn, funnily enough), and that is an actual issue in our current society. It appears to me that a common argument /is/ that taxation feels like theft to these people, and I think a more effective argument to try and convince people to pay their fare share - and to be happy doing so - is to explain how it is justified rather than just telling them they are wrong.

I've spoken about tax with some of my housemates before, and I'm definitely in the minority in being "happy" to pay my taxes. Given the opportunity they would gladly pay less, and I think that can be problematic.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Tineash » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:14 pm

Regginator3 wrote:
Karl wrote:I still don't really understand the urge to seek moral 'soundbites' though.

If you end up saying "x would be wrong if it weren't for the context which justifies x", it just means x as it exists in that context isn't actually wrong, surely?

That's up for debate, because again, it depends what you mean by "wrong". For example, the classic moral dilemma of stealing a loaf of bread for your hungry family. This consists of two options:

1) Stealing a loaf of bread that isn't yours (morally wrong)
2) Letting your family starve to death (morally much much more wrong)

So whilst I'd say stealing a loaf of bread is the right decision, I'd still say it doesn't make the act of stealing the bread morally right. If that makes my viewpoint clearer. Yes, there is the argument that avoiding the "much more morally wrong" option is in itself "morally right" but that's the moral nature of one of the consequences of stealing the bread, not the moral nature of stealing the bread itself.

You know what, strawberry float it. I've been reading way too much Kant. Taxes are morally right, whatever. Easier this way.


But, what if your family don't like bread? They like... cigarettes?

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Regginator3 » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:15 pm

Tineash wrote:
Regginator3 wrote:
Karl wrote:I still don't really understand the urge to seek moral 'soundbites' though.

If you end up saying "x would be wrong if it weren't for the context which justifies x", it just means x as it exists in that context isn't actually wrong, surely?

That's up for debate, because again, it depends what you mean by "wrong". For example, the classic moral dilemma of stealing a loaf of bread for your hungry family. This consists of two options:

1) Stealing a loaf of bread that isn't yours (morally wrong)
2) Letting your family starve to death (morally much much more wrong)

So whilst I'd say stealing a loaf of bread is the right decision, I'd still say it doesn't make the act of stealing the bread morally right. If that makes my viewpoint clearer. Yes, there is the argument that avoiding the "much more morally wrong" option is in itself "morally right" but that's the moral nature of one of the consequences of stealing the bread, not the moral nature of stealing the bread itself.

You know what, strawberry float it. I've been reading way too much Kant. Taxes are morally right, whatever. Easier this way.


But, what if your family don't like bread? They like... cigarettes?

I guess that's ok

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Lex-Man » Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:38 pm

Squinty wrote:It's Adam and Eve. Not Adam and Steve.


Couldn't it be Adam, Eve and Steve.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Lagamorph » Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:59 pm

lex-man wrote:
Squinty wrote:It's Adam and Eve. Not Adam and Steve.


Couldn't it be Adam, Eve and Steve.

And Alice.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Squinty » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:58 pm

lex-man wrote:
Squinty wrote:It's Adam and Eve. Not Adam and Steve.


Couldn't it be Adam, Eve and Steve.


Threeism.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Lex-Man » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:28 pm

Lagamorph wrote:
lex-man wrote:
Squinty wrote:It's Adam and Eve. Not Adam and Steve.


Couldn't it be Adam, Eve and Steve.

And Alice.


The more the merrier.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Regginator3 » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:15 pm


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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Lagamorph » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:26 pm

For a story like that I think I'd want a more reliable source than just the Telegraph.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Lex-Man » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:44 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 12416.html

Here's another source but they went for a different angle.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Lagamorph » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:52 pm

As much as I dislike Corbyn, I doubt he'd go so far as to provide intelligence to a Soviet Spy, even unknowingly.
Hell, in 1986 would Corbyn even have had that much access to information that wasn't already public record that would be of any use/interest to the Soviets?

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Hypes » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:41 pm

Lol, Corbyn's Red Ed Miliband's dad. Probably can't eat a bacon sandwich either

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Alvin Flummux » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:10 am

Lagamorph wrote:As much as I dislike Corbyn, I doubt he'd go so far as to provide intelligence to a Soviet Spy, even unknowingly.
Hell, in 1986 would Corbyn even have had that much access to information that wasn't already public record that would be of any use/interest to the Soviets?


I read an article a while back about a man who the Russians recruited to spy on the US in the 60s and 70s, maybe the 80s. He wasn't big or important, nor did he gather top secret intel like you'd see in The Americans, but he'd send reports back fairly regularly nonetheless, even if it was pretty mundane. The Center seemed pretty chuffed just to have a warm body in enemy territory, apparently. Actually, he might've been one of the illegals who were the basis for The Americans. :shifty:

It wouldn't surprise me in the least to learn Corbyn was a Russian asset at one point. They weren't the sharpest tools in the box.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Moggy » Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:47 am

I thought in 1986 he was a full fledged member of the IRA? Now he’s a Soviet spy as well?

Corbyn was a very busy boy back then, you’d think he’d have advanced his career further rather than waiting another 30 years to get off the backbenches.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Regginator3 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:44 am

Lagamorph wrote:For a story like that I think I'd want a more reliable source than just the Telegraph.

What's wrong with the Telegraph as a reliable source? It's hardly the Sun or the Mail.

Moggy wrote:I thought in 1986 he was a full fledged member of the IRA? Now he’s a Soviet spy as well?

Corbyn was a very busy boy back then, you’d think he’d have advanced his career further rather than waiting another 30 years to get off the backbenches.

Not a member, just supported their efforts, as did McDonnell (to a greater degree) and Abbott (to an even greater degree still, literally claiming that an IRA victory would be the preferrable outcome)

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Moggy » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:53 am

Wow, you’d have to be some sort of crazy person to vote for a party with those three at the top.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Vermilion » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:56 am

It's amazing that Diane Abbot has even been allowed to get this close to high office.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Regginator3 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:58 am

Moggy wrote:Wow, you’d have to be some sort of crazy person to vote for a party with those three at the top.

Well, exactly.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Lagamorph » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:14 am

Regginator3 wrote:
Lagamorph wrote:For a story like that I think I'd want a more reliable source than just the Telegraph.

What's wrong with the Telegraph as a reliable source? It's hardly the Sun or the Mail.

It's nicknamed "The Torygraph" for a reason.

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