The Politics Thread 4

[KK]

I think it is sad what Livingstone has become, he was a well liked London Mayor (as was Boris).

He deserved to be remembered more than just some sort of joke character who turns up on TV with Hitler tourettes.

[Hexx]

Always thought he was a joke even as London Mayor (drunk lol)

He's a caricature of a smug hypocritical sanctimonious lefty - does far more harm than good.

Literally all he had to do to defuse this was "Didn't mean it that way, words can be misinterpreted - my bad" but the idea he could make a mistake or speak poorly was incomprehensible to him - hence the digging in and doubling down.

[Corazon de Leon]

Why exactly is Corbyn being blamed?

He's basically said that it's sad to see Livingstone go, which is considered inappropriate as Livingstone is being investigated for anti-antisemitism.

He also said it was the right thing to do. There's no issue with Corbyn's statement IMO.

[Moggy]

I don’t follow local London politics very closely so I don’t know how well regarded Livingstone and Johnson were as mayors. From what I remember Livingstone was voted in as a “strawberry float you” to Blair and Johnson got in because they were sick of Livingstone and wanted a clown to run the capital city and spend lots of money on non-existent bridges rather than fire stations.

[Lex-Man]

Why exactly is Corbyn being blamed?

He's basically said that it's sad to see Livingstone go, which is considered inappropriate as Livingstone is being investigated for anti-antisemitism.

He also said it was the right thing to do. There's no issue with Corbyn's statement IMO.

Other leaders would have pointed out that it was totally unexceptable for Livingstone to say what he said. Corbyn's statements seems to suggest that Livingstone is quitting more because of the press coverage more than his actual views.

[satriales]

Why exactly is Corbyn being blamed?

He's basically said that it's sad to see Livingstone go, which is considered inappropriate as Livingstone is being investigated for anti-antisemitism.

He also said it was the right thing to do. There's no issue with Corbyn's statement IMO.

Other leaders would have pointed out that it was totally unexceptable for Livingstone to say what he said. Corbyn's statements seems to suggest that Livingstone is quitting more because of the press coverage more than his actual views.

That is why he's quitting.

Ken Livingstone said a lot of stuff and maybe some of it was wrong or offensive (I don't know enough about it to say) but he's clearly not racist and in full context his views don't seem that extreme. If you pick and choose a line out of context (as the media does) then it's quite easy to smear him.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 05311.html

[Hexx]

Saying "[Before he went mad Hitler... supported Zionism" is pretty offensive.

[Lex-Man]

This comment is insightful on the issue.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... onism-jews

[Hexx]

This comment is insightful on the issue.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... onism-jews

Good piece - last couple of paragraphs particularly.

[Corazon de Leon]

I’m not defending Ken Livingstone btw, the comment was ignorant at best. I just have no issue with Cornyn’s statement on his resignation.

[Lex-Man]

I’m not defending Ken Livingstone btw, the comment was ignorant at best. I just have no issue with Cornyn’s statement on his resignation.

The issue is Corbyn should have been more explicit about Livingstone's comments and why they weren't appropriate.

[Moggy]

I’m not defending Ken Livingstone btw, the comment was ignorant at best. I just have no issue with Cornyn’s statement on his resignation.

The issue is Corbyn should have been more explicit about Livingstone's comments and why they weren't appropriate.

I agree with both of you. I don’t think Corbyn’s statement was too bad, but in the context of the on-going anti-semitism row with Labour, he should have worded it more carefully.

[Hexx]

I'm fairly vocal about finding Corbyn irritating, but I didn't think there was much off about his statement.

[<]:^D]

I’m not defending Ken Livingstone btw, the comment was ignorant at best. I just have no issue with Cornyn’s statement on his resignation.

The issue is Corbyn should have been more explicit about Livingstone's comments and why they weren't appropriate.

I agree with both of you. I don’t think Corbyn’s statement was too bad, but in the context of the on-going anti-semitism row with Labour, he should have worded it more carefully.

wait a minute, Moggy agreeing with two people?

[Moggy]

I’m not defending Ken Livingstone btw, the comment was ignorant at best. I just have no issue with Cornyn’s statement on his resignation.

The issue is Corbyn should have been more explicit about Livingstone's comments and why they weren't appropriate.

I agree with both of you. I don’t think Corbyn’s statement was too bad, but in the context of the on-going anti-semitism row with Labour, he should have worded it more carefully.

wait a minute, Moggy agreeing with two people?

I agree with lots of people. I only argue against people when they ruin thread titles.

[Photek]

So, we are Voting this Friday to repeal the 8th amendment in our constitution (to treat the life of the unborn and mother equally). Essentially it's a vote 'Yes' to repeal and bring about legislation to allow abortion up to 12 weeks or 'No' to keep it as is.

The debates have been very heated as you can imagine. I'm obviously voting Yes but honestly the behavior of the 'no' side has been horrendous. Not only have they shouted down most people in debates, they are actively putting up posters containing lies over the past few weeks. They keep saying '6 months is murder' or 'a 6 month old baby can yawn'. No one is on about 6months, it's 12 weeks, it's infuriating. They've brought a stat on other posters that 4/5 down syndrome babies are aborted in England despite Down Syndrome Ireland asking them to not use the condition for political purposes.

Not only that but we've had an influx of eejits from other countries coming here to campaign for the 'No' side. We've had horrendous butchered baby posters put up around Dublin that had to be taken down and the outrageousness of some of the people on radio literally makes me rage in anger. Yesterday a spokesman for Amnesty International (irish guy) pointed out that the woman on the no side not 2 years ago campaigned that a 12 year old rape victim should have her baby, against the parents of the girls wishes.

Currently thousands of Irish women travel to Liverpool and Wales to have abortions, they do it under a cloud of uncertainty, illegality and are mostly alone. It has to strawberry floating stop, I'm worried that Friday won't lead to a yes victory. Our governments opposition party is split on the issue, I simply can't see why anyone would vote No. There's so much fake shite on the net going around (pretty much all on the 'No' side) that Facebook and Google had to ban adverts about it from outside of Ireland.

Anyway just thought I'd catch you up.

[Moggy]

I simply can't see why anyone would vote No.

A sensible and rational person wouldn’t vote no.

Unfortunately there are a very large number of people that are not sensible or rational.

Hopefully the Irish referendum will go through, but “what Jesus wants” will have a big impact on a lot of voters and the lies will have an effect on many others.

[satriales]

Saying "[Before he went mad Hitler... supported Zionism" is pretty offensive.

Yes, but that is one line in a longer interview. Even it's completely ignorant and untrue, it doesn't suddenly make him anti-Semitic.

[Moggy]

Saying "[Before he went mad Hitler... supported Zionism" is pretty offensive.

Yes, but that is one line in a longer interview. Even it's completely ignorant and untrue, it doesn't suddenly make him anti-Semitic.

Not suddenly no. He’s actually been at it since the 1980s.

This, he suggested, was because "there is a distortion running right the way through British politics", as "a majority of Jews in this country supported the Labour Party and elected a number of Jewish Labour MPs".

Speaking to "Davar", the newspaper published by the Israel's organization of trade unions, Mr Livingstone tried to explain why Jews in Britain were not so keen to vote Labour. They had always supported his party, he insisted, until Menachem Begin came onto the political stage and then "suddenly the Jews became reactionaries, turned Right, nearly to be fascists".

Speaking again to "Davar", Mr Livingstone claimed that "extremist Jews" were organising "paramilitary groups, which resemble fascist organisations", in London and elsewhere. "It is obvious that those Jews will try to hurt me and my reputation," he added.

“As the Jewish community got richer, it moved over to voting for Mrs Thatcher as they did in Finchley.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/0 ... ws-hitler/

Some of the things in that list are stretching things a bit, but Livingstone has a very long history of talking about Jews.

[Hexx]

Saying "[Before he went mad Hitler... supported Zionism" is pretty offensive.

Yes, but that is one line in a longer interview. Even it's completely ignorant and untrue, it doesn't suddenly make him anti-Semitic.

How do you feel about his deliberately provocation and insulting behavior to the Jewish reporter in the 2000s?

It's a long pattern of baiting and tactlessness around Jewish people (Israeli, Zionist or not). As the article above puts it

"that sense that runs deep in the left, that the Jews don’t quite fit into the category of The Oppressed, and so therefore don’t deserve the same protections and sympathy as other minorities in the face of racism against them"

Add in Ken's arrogance and self-confidence that he is good/right about all things...and you end up with this mess.

Edit - Also "Even if"?