The Politics Thread 4

[Jenuall]

Livingstone should have gone ages ago for a variety of reasons - I still don't understand how Labour in general have managed the strawberry float up their handling of the anti-antisemitism issue this badly.

The reality is almost certainly that very few people* in the party are genuinely antisemitic but the handling of it and the fact it has been in the press for so long now just makes it look like to Joe Public that Labour are NSGWP MK. 2.

That said it is interesting that Labour in general and people like Livingstone in particular are being hounded regarding arguments that they might possibly be antisemitic, whereas the party in power (and indeed the PM specifically) which has shown to be openly racist and xenophobic through things like the sanctioned "go back home" slogans and the deporting of British citizens over windrush appears, to my eyes at least, to be getting a relatively easy ride.

*just to be clear on this - one person being antisemitic is absolutely one too many, I'm not trying to diminish that in any way

[Squinty]

I simply can't see why anyone would vote No.

A sensible and rational person wouldn’t vote no.

Unfortunately there are a very large number of people that are not sensible or rational.

Hopefully the Irish referendum will go through, but “what Jesus wants” will have a big impact on a lot of voters and the lies will have an effect on many others.

I genuinely hope it goes through for Ireland. Sending women to other countries for abortions is just horrendous and in a lot of instances, it makes an already bad situation even more stressful. We currently do the same thing in NI. It makes no strawberry floating sense.

But yeah, never underestimate a large group of stupid people.

Gonna make a prediction though. 'Yes' will be in around the 60-65 percent. Feel free to mock the strawberry float out of me if I'm wrong

[Moggy]

That said it is interesting that Labour in general and people like Livingstone in particular are being hounded regarding arguments that they might possibly be antisemitic, whereas the party in power (and indeed the PM specifically) which has shown to be openly racist and xenophobic through things like the sanctioned "go back home" slogans and the deporting of British citizens over windrush appears, to my eyes at least, to be getting a relatively easy ride.

We are all guilty of doing this, but I don’t think it is helpful to compare the two like that. I know you don’t mean it this way, but it often looks like Labour are ignoring their problems and just pointing at the Tories problems to deflect attention away.

I don’t believe Labour have a bigger (as in lots of the their members/MPs) problem than the Tories when it comes to racism, but I think they need to deal with the issues that they do have. It is a far bigger “strawberry float you” to the Tories if Labour first removed their anti-semitic members before pointing out Tory racism.

The media is mostly right wing and so they will always attack Labour over the Tories, which is why the Windrush story was dropped as soon as Rudd quit as Home Secretary. Again though, Labour could help themselves if they were seen to be removing any members that were taking part in any form of anti-semitic abuse.

[Jenuall]

That said it is interesting that Labour in general and people like Livingstone in particular are being hounded regarding arguments that they might possibly be antisemitic, whereas the party in power (and indeed the PM specifically) which has shown to be openly racist and xenophobic through things like the sanctioned "go back home" slogans and the deporting of British citizens over windrush appears, to my eyes at least, to be getting a relatively easy ride.

We are all guilty of doing this, but I don’t think it is helpful to compare the two like that. I know you don’t mean it this way, but it often looks like Labour are ignoring their problems and just pointing at the Tories problems to deflect attention away.

I don’t believe Labour have a bigger (as in lots of the their members/MPs) problem than the Tories when it comes to racism, but I think they need to deal with the issues that they do have. It is a far bigger “strawberry float you” to the Tories if Labour first removed their anti-semitic members before pointing out Tory racism.

The media is mostly right wing and so they will always attack Labour over the Tories, which is why the Windrush story was dropped as soon as Rudd quit as Home Secretary. Again though, Labour could help themselves if they were seen to be removing any members that were taking part in any form of anti-semitic abuse.

Indeed, whilst I'd say it's not a completely apples and oranges debate, I wasn't attempting to use one as a deflection for the other. I agree that Labour need to sort their gooseberry fool out and that going "but what about them!" is not an acceptable action to take (people in glass houses and all that).

My comment regarding the Tories "easy ride" on racism was more about the public reaction than that of the press - as you say they will always go after the left. In my mind it feels like we should be seeing much more hostility toward the Conservatives for things like Windrush on social media and potentially in public demonstrations than what we are.

[Moggy]

That said it is interesting that Labour in general and people like Livingstone in particular are being hounded regarding arguments that they might possibly be antisemitic, whereas the party in power (and indeed the PM specifically) which has shown to be openly racist and xenophobic through things like the sanctioned "go back home" slogans and the deporting of British citizens over windrush appears, to my eyes at least, to be getting a relatively easy ride.

We are all guilty of doing this, but I don’t think it is helpful to compare the two like that. I know you don’t mean it this way, but it often looks like Labour are ignoring their problems and just pointing at the Tories problems to deflect attention away.

I don’t believe Labour have a bigger (as in lots of the their members/MPs) problem than the Tories when it comes to racism, but I think they need to deal with the issues that they do have. It is a far bigger “strawberry float you” to the Tories if Labour first removed their anti-semitic members before pointing out Tory racism.

The media is mostly right wing and so they will always attack Labour over the Tories, which is why the Windrush story was dropped as soon as Rudd quit as Home Secretary. Again though, Labour could help themselves if they were seen to be removing any members that were taking part in any form of anti-semitic abuse.

Indeed, whilst I'd say it's not a completely apples and oranges debate, I wasn't attempting to use one as a deflection for the other. I agree that Labour need to sort their gooseberry fool out and that going "but what about them!" is not an acceptable action to take (people in glass houses and all that).

My comment regarding the Tories "easy ride" on racism was more about the public reaction than that of the press - as you say they will always go after the left. In my mind it feels like we should be seeing much more hostility toward the Conservatives for things like Windrush on social media and potentially in public demonstrations than what we are.

I guess the press also has the excuse that Labour really should be better than this and they can also point out the hypocrisy of the left who lecture on racism and then are guilty of it themselves. Left wingers are (generally speaking) supposed to be anti-racist whereas you expect this sort of gooseberry fool from the right wing.

Obviously that is mostly bollocks, there is nothing that says a trade unionist has to be non-racist or that a capitalist banker has to be a racist. But the perception is that racism on the left = hypocrisy! Racism on the right = a normal Tuesday.

[BID0]

All those tower blocks with that petrol like cladding on them still

[Rax]

Referendum stuff

As it draws closer Im more and more convinced that theres a bunch of closet No voters around who will claim to be voting Yes when asked for the polls but will go ahead and vote No in the privacy of the polling booth. I also dont see a huge "home to vote" movement like we had with the same sex marriage referendum so the votes of the elderly will hold a lot more sway in this one which is another reason Im not optimistic.

The lies and underhanded tactics of the No campaign have been utterly reprehensible though what else can you expect from people who would rather force women to give birth, sell the baby (or throw it in a sewer) and then enslave the mother for her sins. This country strawberry floating sickens me sometimes.

[Jenuall]

That said it is interesting that Labour in general and people like Livingstone in particular are being hounded regarding arguments that they might possibly be antisemitic, whereas the party in power (and indeed the PM specifically) which has shown to be openly racist and xenophobic through things like the sanctioned "go back home" slogans and the deporting of British citizens over windrush appears, to my eyes at least, to be getting a relatively easy ride.

We are all guilty of doing this, but I don’t think it is helpful to compare the two like that. I know you don’t mean it this way, but it often looks like Labour are ignoring their problems and just pointing at the Tories problems to deflect attention away.

I don’t believe Labour have a bigger (as in lots of the their members/MPs) problem than the Tories when it comes to racism, but I think they need to deal with the issues that they do have. It is a far bigger “strawberry float you” to the Tories if Labour first removed their anti-semitic members before pointing out Tory racism.

The media is mostly right wing and so they will always attack Labour over the Tories, which is why the Windrush story was dropped as soon as Rudd quit as Home Secretary. Again though, Labour could help themselves if they were seen to be removing any members that were taking part in any form of anti-semitic abuse.

Indeed, whilst I'd say it's not a completely apples and oranges debate, I wasn't attempting to use one as a deflection for the other. I agree that Labour need to sort their gooseberry fool out and that going "but what about them!" is not an acceptable action to take (people in glass houses and all that).

My comment regarding the Tories "easy ride" on racism was more about the public reaction than that of the press - as you say they will always go after the left. In my mind it feels like we should be seeing much more hostility toward the Conservatives for things like Windrush on social media and potentially in public demonstrations than what we are.

I guess the press also has the excuse that Labour really should be better than this and they can also point out the hypocrisy of the left who lecture on racism and then are guilty of it themselves. Left wingers are (generally speaking) supposed to be anti-racist whereas you expect this sort of gooseberry fool from the right wing.

Obviously that is mostly bollocks, there is nothing that says a trade unionist has to be non-racist or that a capitalist banker has to be a racist. But the perception is that racism on the left = hypocrisy! Racism on the right = a normal Tuesday.

Sad but true. You would have hoped that we might have arrived at a point where nobody expects anyone to be racist whether they're on the right or the left, and that reaction to anyone who is revealed to be would be equally strong regardless of political affiliation!

Sadly you can still watch pretty much any Not the Nine O'Clock News sketch from the 80's about racism within the Tory party, or within the country generally, and it all still seems pretty accurate.

[Vermilion]

All those tower blocks with that petrol like cladding on them still

I see a lot of buildings with similar looking cladding on when heading into London, there's one by the M4 viaduct, and another next to the M3 at Sunbury.

[Moggy]

That said it is interesting that Labour in general and people like Livingstone in particular are being hounded regarding arguments that they might possibly be antisemitic, whereas the party in power (and indeed the PM specifically) which has shown to be openly racist and xenophobic through things like the sanctioned "go back home" slogans and the deporting of British citizens over windrush appears, to my eyes at least, to be getting a relatively easy ride.

We are all guilty of doing this, but I don’t think it is helpful to compare the two like that. I know you don’t mean it this way, but it often looks like Labour are ignoring their problems and just pointing at the Tories problems to deflect attention away.

I don’t believe Labour have a bigger (as in lots of the their members/MPs) problem than the Tories when it comes to racism, but I think they need to deal with the issues that they do have. It is a far bigger “strawberry float you” to the Tories if Labour first removed their anti-semitic members before pointing out Tory racism.

The media is mostly right wing and so they will always attack Labour over the Tories, which is why the Windrush story was dropped as soon as Rudd quit as Home Secretary. Again though, Labour could help themselves if they were seen to be removing any members that were taking part in any form of anti-semitic abuse.

Indeed, whilst I'd say it's not a completely apples and oranges debate, I wasn't attempting to use one as a deflection for the other. I agree that Labour need to sort their gooseberry fool out and that going "but what about them!" is not an acceptable action to take (people in glass houses and all that).

My comment regarding the Tories "easy ride" on racism was more about the public reaction than that of the press - as you say they will always go after the left. In my mind it feels like we should be seeing much more hostility toward the Conservatives for things like Windrush on social media and potentially in public demonstrations than what we are.

I guess the press also has the excuse that Labour really should be better than this and they can also point out the hypocrisy of the left who lecture on racism and then are guilty of it themselves. Left wingers are (generally speaking) supposed to be anti-racist whereas you expect this sort of gooseberry fool from the right wing.

Obviously that is mostly bollocks, there is nothing that says a trade unionist has to be non-racist or that a capitalist banker has to be a racist. But the perception is that racism on the left = hypocrisy! Racism on the right = a normal Tuesday.

Sad but true. You would have hoped that we might have arrived at a point where nobody expects anyone to be racist whether they're on the right or the left, and that reaction to anyone who is revealed to be would be equally strong regardless of political affiliation!

Sadly you can still watch pretty much any Not the Nine O'Clock News sketch from the 80's about racism within the Tory party, or within the country generally, and it all still seems pretty accurate.

We might hope that racism had died away, but our MPs are still receiving letters like this.

twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/998576731975028742

[NickSCFC]

I simply can't see why anyone would vote No.

A sensible and rational person wouldn’t vote no.

Unfortunately there are a very large number of people that are not sensible or rational.

Hopefully the Irish referendum will go through, but “what Jesus wants” will have a big impact on a lot of voters and the lies will have an effect on many others.

I genuinely hope it goes through for Ireland. Sending women to other countries for abortions is just horrendous and in a lot of instances, it makes an already bad situation even more stressful. We currently do the same thing in NI. It makes no strawberry floating sense.

But yeah, never underestimate a large group of stupid people.

Gonna make a prediction though. 'Yes' will be in around the 60-65 percent. Feel free to mock the strawberry float out of me if I'm wrong

It'd be great if it happened.

Another nail in the coffin for the Church's power grip on Ireland.

Next up, schools.

[Rax]

I simply can't see why anyone would vote No.

A sensible and rational person wouldn’t vote no.

Unfortunately there are a very large number of people that are not sensible or rational.

Hopefully the Irish referendum will go through, but “what Jesus wants” will have a big impact on a lot of voters and the lies will have an effect on many others.

I genuinely hope it goes through for Ireland. Sending women to other countries for abortions is just horrendous and in a lot of instances, it makes an already bad situation even more stressful. We currently do the same thing in NI. It makes no strawberry floating sense.

But yeah, never underestimate a large group of stupid people.

Gonna make a prediction though. 'Yes' will be in around the 60-65 percent. Feel free to mock the strawberry float out of me if I'm wrong

It'd be great if it happened.

Another nail in the coffin for the Church's power grip on Ireland.

Next up, schools.

Looking forward to having that showdown in a couple of years. We are lucky enough in that we have a choice of schools aroundus and none of them are oversubscribed but all bar one are Catholic schools and the one is a Church of Ireland school that is horribly run down. We are probably gonna go with the Gaeilscoil as it has the nicest facilities and her being able to speak Irish would be great but Im going to insist on her being catered for when the other kids are having religion foisted upoin them. This weekend I was at a first communion mass and the amount of time wasted on teaching the kids the routine and the songs and all the rest of it is frightening. Even the fella making his communion was giving out that they could have been doing something more useful with their time. Their stranglehold on schools will take decades to break, its starting to happen in the cities but it will be a long time before patrons are found for the majority of schools in the country.

[Photek]

My daughter goes to a catholic school but is not baptised. She won’t be doing her communion or confirmation or taking part in any church activities. The teacher is understanding which is grand. She got a note Home yesterday asking if she could take part singing in church for class above communion and she had already written NOPE in huge letters where it had “Parents Consent:”

[Garth]

It'd be great if it happened.

Another nail in the coffin for the Church's power grip on Ireland.

Next up, schools.

They've got a pretty bad track record, haven't they:

List of things the Catholic Church has opposed in Ireland
1944 – Tampons (may arouse women)
1950 – Mother & Child Scheme
1970 – Studying at Trinity College
1973 – Married women in the Civil Service
1985 – Contraception
1986 – Divorce
1993 – Decriminalisation of homosexuality
1996 – Divorce
2005 – Ferns report into child abuse
2010 – Civil Partnerships
2013 – Abortions if mother’s life was at risk
2015 – Equal Marriage
2018 – Abortion

[Squinty]

Crikey that David Lammy card

[NickSCFC]

List of things the Catholic Church has opposed in Ireland
1993 – Decriminalisation of homosexuality

That one's strawberry floating disgusting, especially given the year, wasn't that when the sexual abuse stories started coming out?

[Garth]

MP makes formal complaint about Speaker

A Conservative MP has made a formal complaint to the Commons standards watchdog Kathryn Stone about the behaviour of Speaker John Bercow.

Last week MPs blocked Ms Stone from probing allegations that Mr Bercow bullied staff, which he denies.

But James Duddridge, a long-time critic of Mr Bercow, is calling on her to investigate comments reportedly made about Commons leader Andrea Leadsom.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44208858

MPs blocked the probe into the staff bullying allegations?

[Vermilion]

Did someone say the catholic church in Ireland?

[BID0]

Sweden tells citizens how to prepare for war - for first time in 30 years

Sweden is sending an updated version of a Cold War-era advice booklet on how to cope with an outbreak of war to around 4.8 million households.
The 20-page pamphlet, titled "If Crisis or War Comes," contains advice about where to find bomb shelters and how to secure basic necessities such as food, clean water and heat.

It tells Swedes they have a duty to act if their country is threatened for "total defence," and was first published during the Second World War and subsequently during the Cold War.

"If Sweden is attacked by another country, we will never give up," the booklet says. "All information to the effect that resistance is to cease is false."

Sweden and other countries in the region are on high alert after Russia annexed Ukraine's Crimean peninsula in March 2014.

The Scandinavian nation has also accused Russia of repeated violations of their airspace, an assertion Moscow has either dismissed or ignored.

In 2016, the Swedish government started to increase military spending, reversing years of declines. The country is also debating joining the Nato military alliance.

It ordered a review of nuclear war shelters on the island of Gotland, where it has permanently stationed troops to prepare for a potential attack.

It also reintroduced military conscription for both men and women over concerns about increased military action in the Baltic region.

- https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 63191.html

[Hexx]

Not really sure where to put these. But bad days for retail - Tesco Direct gone and M&S closing 100 stores

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... sco-direct

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ose-stores