The Politics Thread 4

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by <]:^D » Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:26 pm

would be cheaper :lol: youre a joker Regginator3

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Tineash » Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:36 pm

Regginator3 wrote:
Evil Ted wrote:
Regginator3 wrote:
Evil Ted wrote:
Regginator3 wrote:Most people

Which people? It's just you and the guy who took your wallet. Where are these other people coming from?

The other people who exist in society. What are you talking about? :lol:

I'm just wondering why they're relevant.

Because they're still the people in the society who give words meanings, and who hold opinions on morals. So are you suggesting morals wouldn't exist in a world without the state?

lex-man wrote:1. The physical notes wouldn't disappear but the system that keep them having worth would disappear. Without the government money would be a bunch of pretty looking paper.

I still don't get what you mean, though. How is it the government that gives the pound worth? The value of the pound is literally dependent on the markets, not the government. I'm not saying there would be no period of instability while transitioning to this potential society due to potential problems that could arise, but it isn't the government that gives the pound worth. If anything it's almost always the reverse - the government impacts value of the pound negatively.

lex-man wrote:But under this system you could go to Bristol and earn money and not pay tax but you wouldn't have things like paved roads, or a fire department unless you voluntarily paid a surcharge for them. Although how you would stop people using roads they hadn't paid for would be interesting.

Firstly that sounds like Bristol anyway. Secondly why wouldn't we have paved roads? We would, they'd just be owned privately and presumably there would be a toll system to pay for them. Not much different from road tax. If anything it'd be cheaper, considering the market value would determine the price (with, obviously, a small profit for the companies to boot since if there wasn't any there would be no incentive).


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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by <]:^D » Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:37 pm

:lol:

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Cribs » Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:49 pm

The crux of the argument is that theft (rightfully) holds negative connotations due to its use in law. I'm just amazed it has taken 10 pages

Some people clearly cannot get past this

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Lagamorph » Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:50 pm

Maybe Regginator is actually from the Back to the Future version of 2015 where the cars could all fly and you didn't need roads.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by <]:^D » Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:57 pm

Cribs wrote:The crux of the argument is that theft (rightfully) holds negative connotations due to its use in law. I'm just amazed it has taken 10 pages

Some people clearly cannot get past this


the problem was the analogy and conflation of taxation and theft, with the argument that both were morally wrong.
whether taxation is theft and whether taxation is morally wrong are two separate arguments.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Cribs » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:02 pm

Evil Ted wrote:
Regginator3 wrote:
Evil Ted wrote:
Regginator3 wrote:Most people

Which people? It's just you and the guy who took your wallet. Where are these other people coming from?

The other people who exist in society. What are you talking about? :lol:

I'm just wondering why they're relevant.


Morality is at its core subjective meaning the existence of a wider society is key

<]:^D wrote:
Cribs wrote:The crux of the argument is that theft (rightfully) holds negative connotations due to its use in law. I'm just amazed it has taken 10 pages

Some people clearly cannot get past this


the problem was the analogy and conflation of taxation and theft, with the argument that both were morally wrong.
whether taxation is theft and whether taxation is morally wrong are two separate arguments.


I agree, and this is where I differ from Regg and OR in that I believe tax is a version of morally right theft

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Dual » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:04 pm

Regginator3 wrote:Firstly that sounds like Bristol anyway.


:lol: ice cold

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Lex-Man » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:05 pm

Regginator3 wrote:
lex-man wrote:But under this system you could go to Bristol and earn money and not pay tax but you wouldn't have things like paved roads, or a fire department unless you voluntarily paid a surcharge for them. Although how you would stop people using roads they hadn't paid for would be interesting.

Firstly that sounds like Bristol anyway. Secondly why wouldn't we have paved roads? We would, they'd just be owned privately and presumably there would be a toll system to pay for them. Not much different from road tax. If anything it'd be cheaper, considering the market value would determine the price (with, obviously, a small profit for the companies to boot since if there wasn't any there would be no incentive).


But would the option of living in that type place mean that paying tax was moral when living elsewhere, as you could always move into the tax free zone if you wanted?

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Moggy » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:08 pm

This is getting boring now.

Can we move on to the other favourite 6th form debate, "all property is theft"?

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Errkal » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:10 pm

Moggy wrote:This is getting boring now.

Can we move on to the other favourite 6th form debate, "all property is theft"?


It isn't really about UK politics right now so it should be moved to its own thread rather than sitting in this one.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by OrangeRKN » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:17 pm

No one even told me if Bob was morally wrong to take Alice's berries :(

#UKPolitics

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Moggy » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:21 pm

Errkal wrote:
Moggy wrote:This is getting boring now.

Can we move on to the other favourite 6th form debate, "all property is theft"?


It isn't really about UK politics right now so it should be moved to its own thread rather than sitting in this one.


Can we move it to the Wesley Snipes thread?

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Jenuall » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:21 pm

OrangeRakoon wrote:No one even told me if Bob was morally wrong to take Alice's berries :(

#UKPolitics


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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Regginator3 » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:30 pm

Cribs wrote:
Evil Ted wrote:
Regginator3 wrote:
Evil Ted wrote:
Regginator3 wrote:Most people

Which people? It's just you and the guy who took your wallet. Where are these other people coming from?

The other people who exist in society. What are you talking about? :lol:

I'm just wondering why they're relevant.


Morality is at its core subjective meaning the existence of a wider society is key

<]:^D wrote:
Cribs wrote:The crux of the argument is that theft (rightfully) holds negative connotations due to its use in law. I'm just amazed it has taken 10 pages

Some people clearly cannot get past this


the problem was the analogy and conflation of taxation and theft, with the argument that both were morally wrong.
whether taxation is theft and whether taxation is morally wrong are two separate arguments.


I agree, and this is where I differ from Regg and OR in that I believe tax is a version of morally right theft

Depends on your opinion of what 'morally right' is - if something by itself is morally wrong, however the practicality and the fact that there is no less wrong alternative exists then that makes it 'morally right', to you, that's fair enough. I wouldn't word it like that, and just say it's "morally wrong to do, practically the right thing to do, and here the practicality is more important". I guess it would be easier to just shorten it to "morally right" but I don't think that conveys my actual thoughts as well. Although clearly my points aren't being conveyed clearly as it's taken like 10 pages to get them straight anyway so...

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by That » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:34 pm

I still don't really understand the urge to seek moral 'soundbites' though.

If you end up saying "x would be wrong if it weren't for the context which justifies x", it just means x as it exists in that context isn't actually wrong, surely?

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Moggy » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:40 pm

twitter.com/stopfundinghate/status/964408111401283584



twitter.com/dmreporter/status/964515156561661952



:datass:

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Regginator3 » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:42 pm

Karl wrote:I still don't really understand the urge to seek moral 'soundbites' though.

If you end up saying "x would be wrong if it weren't for the context which justifies x", it just means x as it exists in that context isn't actually wrong, surely?

That's up for debate, because again, it depends what you mean by "wrong". For example, the classic moral dilemma of stealing a loaf of bread for your hungry family. This consists of two options:

1) Stealing a loaf of bread that isn't yours (morally wrong)
2) Letting your family starve to death (morally much much more wrong)

So whilst I'd say stealing a loaf of bread is the right decision, I'd still say it doesn't make the act of stealing the bread morally right. If that makes my viewpoint clearer. Yes, there is the argument that avoiding the "much more morally wrong" option is in itself "morally right" but that's the moral nature of one of the consequences of stealing the bread, not the moral nature of stealing the bread itself.

You know what, strawberry float it. I've been reading way too much Kant. Taxes are morally right, whatever. Easier this way.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Squinty » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:42 pm

It's Adam and Eve. Not Adam and Steve.

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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Moggy » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:43 pm

Regg, there’s another thread for the boring tax stuff.


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