The Proposed Increase To Student Fees

JNR wrote:

JingleJay wrote:Yes let the government get further into debt by writing off the debt off students!

The day universities are free (In England.) is the day hell freezes over.

That isn't what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that for those students who wish to funnel their education back into education, give them a break. Make it a desirable option for quality graduates, not for Food and Nutrition graduates studying to be Biology teachers. These people are going to be teaching the graduates of the future and a serious investment in teacher recruitment is something that should be done. Let's put it this way, in a horribly anecdotal example...

When you want to be a teacher you have to pass special exams in ICT, English and Maths, to prove you are capable in what the government must see as mundane and every day maths and english. The ICT exam is very easy. English and Maths proved to be a challenge for some, to the point where 5 or more goes were required for either, or both.

I did all three, first time, in one go, in one afternoon. And I'm not a genius, far from it sadly. That is the calibre of students that are attracted to teaching.

Is it fair to say that a lot of these people are young females who are somewhat starstruck by the idea of working with lovely little children?

Cuban Mistletoe Crisis wrote:

Skarjo wrote:The thing that I really wish I'd been more informed about over the years is graduate training schemes. Anyone with a degree should really look into them. Not quite sure what Eighty has against Science degress, as most training courses demand one that has a scientific or mathematical basis. Still, my Medical Microbiology degree seemed pretty useful when HSBC put me on the Commercial Management scheme.

I'm having a look through them all now, but our lecturer didn't really instil much faith when he said you could go through 30 or 40 interviews and fail the lot of them. It doesn't really do much to encourage you.

I've got half filled in applications for BAE and the Co-Operative. To be honest it's not a line of work I want to take but I'd be a strawberry floating idiot if I didn't make use of the opportunity.

EDIT: You say graduate training, I'm looking at placement year stuff, but they all seem to offer both. Just on different terms.

They're tough, and competitive, but still a brilliant opportunity to try something completely different. For instance, at the start of uni I was your typical pseudo-socialist student sheep and was rapidly finding out that the career that I picked out at the absurdly young age of 13 was not actually for me and I was now stuck on a degree I had no real intention of following as a career. Thinking that I was stuck with a very specialised degree I thought my only option was Teacher Training, which I dutifully completed and also thought balls to.

When I saw a training scheme for a completely roundabout backflip of a career change I gave it a stab and got on. I'm now looking toward a career I can actually see fitting in with things that, deep down, I think play to who I am and what I want to do much more effectively.

The selection process was very tough, and there were apparently 175 applicants for every place available. So you might have to try two or three.

Cuban Mistletoe Crisis wrote:

JNR wrote:

JingleJay wrote:Yes let the government get further into debt by writing off the debt off students!

The day universities are free (In England.) is the day hell freezes over.

That isn't what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that for those students who wish to funnel their education back into education, give them a break. Make it a desirable option for quality graduates, not for Food and Nutrition graduates studying to be Biology teachers. These people are going to be teaching the graduates of the future and a serious investment in teacher recruitment is something that should be done. Let's put it this way, in a horribly anecdotal example...

When you want to be a teacher you have to pass special exams in ICT, English and Maths, to prove you are capable in what the government must see as mundane and every day maths and english. The ICT exam is very easy. English and Maths proved to be a challenge for some, to the point where 5 or more goes were required for either, or both.

I did all three, first time, in one go, in one afternoon. And I'm not a genius, far from it sadly. That is the calibre of students that are attracted to teaching.

Is it fair to say that a lot of these people are young females who are somewhat starstruck by the idea of working with lovely little children?

Not really no. If my (and Pedros, for that matter) PGCE year as anything to go by, the vast majority of graduates going into teaching have their eyes wide open. They know it's a tough job with alright pay and great holidays. The only girl who dropped out of our course did so because she wanted to work with special needs children.

Merry Christmas, Noobs! wrote:I'm in the north-east. I appreciate the help.

PM sent.

Skarjo wrote:

Cuban Mistletoe Crisis wrote:

JNR wrote:

JingleJay wrote:Yes let the government get further into debt by writing off the debt off students!

The day universities are free (In England.) is the day hell freezes over.

That isn't what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that for those students who wish to funnel their education back into education, give them a break. Make it a desirable option for quality graduates, not for Food and Nutrition graduates studying to be Biology teachers. These people are going to be teaching the graduates of the future and a serious investment in teacher recruitment is something that should be done. Let's put it this way, in a horribly anecdotal example...

When you want to be a teacher you have to pass special exams in ICT, English and Maths, to prove you are capable in what the government must see as mundane and every day maths and english. The ICT exam is very easy. English and Maths proved to be a challenge for some, to the point where 5 or more goes were required for either, or both.

I did all three, first time, in one go, in one afternoon. And I'm not a genius, far from it sadly. That is the calibre of students that are attracted to teaching.

Is it fair to say that a lot of these people are young females who are somewhat starstruck by the idea of working with lovely little children?

Not really no. If my (and Pedros, for that matter) PGCE year as anything to go by, the vast majority of graduates going into teaching have their eyes wide open. They know it's a tough job with alright pay and great holidays. The only girl who dropped out of our course did so because she wanted to work with special needs children.

Fair enough. Just round here you get a lot of young ladies who did childcare, social care, citizenship and what-not at GCSE and NVQ level and express nothing but an overwhelming desire to work with children in some form or another.

Skarjo wrote:

Cuban Mistletoe Crisis wrote:

Skarjo wrote:The thing that I really wish I'd been more informed about over the years is graduate training schemes. Anyone with a degree should really look into them. Not quite sure what Eighty has against Science degress, as most training courses demand one that has a scientific or mathematical basis. Still, my Medical Microbiology degree seemed pretty useful when HSBC put me on the Commercial Management scheme.

I'm having a look through them all now, but our lecturer didn't really instil much faith when he said you could go through 30 or 40 interviews and fail the lot of them. It doesn't really do much to encourage you.

I've got half filled in applications for BAE and the Co-Operative. To be honest it's not a line of work I want to take but I'd be a strawberry floating idiot if I didn't make use of the opportunity.

EDIT: You say graduate training, I'm looking at placement year stuff, but they all seem to offer both. Just on different terms.

They're tough, and competitive, but still a brilliant opportunity to try something completely different. For instance, at the start of uni I was your typical pseudo-socialist student sheep and was rapidly finding out that the career that I picked out at the absurdly young age of 13 was not actually for me and I was now stuck on a degree I had no real intention of following as a career. Thinking that I was stuck with a very specialised degree I thought my only option was Teacher Training, which I dutifully completed and also thought balls to.

When I saw a training scheme for a completely roundabout backflip of a career change I gave it a stab and got on. I'm now looking toward a career I can actually see fitting in with things that, deep down, I think play to who I am and what I want to do much more effectively.

The selection process was very tough, and there were apparently 175 applicants for every place available. So you might have to try two or three.

The good stuff always requires a bit of hard work to reach, eh? I can see myself doing something like you do, as I'm doing a course that I've realised I'm not all too interested in (well, there's only part of it I've felt enthusiastic about) and the typical job you get from it isn't what I'm after. Such is the life of a Business Studies student who prefers the more theoretical economical and psychological discussions to stats analysis and number crunching.

The only reason I picked the degree was because I didn't want to do anything related to IT or computing, and business stuff was what I was good at. It's a logical choice when you hate the thought of starting off at (or near) the bottom of the food chain in an office environment.

Hime123 wrote:

Merry Christmas, Noobs! wrote:I'm in the north-east. I appreciate the help.

PM sent.

Much appreciated.

Personally I'm fortunate that my dad has both the money and will to not want either myself or my sister to leave Uni with debt, so he's basically paying it off for me at the end.

I go to a top University and do a decent degree (though perhaps not based on what HrC says...), so I should be ok job-wise.

This thread should be specified to England.

Here's a nice little story for all you students:

My girlfriend has a degree in Criminal Psychology with plenty of knowledge of children. She has a wonderful CV; good jobs, good references, was a Samartian, has worked with special needs kids, etc.

The shitty play council around here went bust, leaving her with just a weekend job and us pretty skint.

She applied for another job, just a retail one (Don't expect big bucks after Uni. 22 for a decent minimum wage? She's on £4.72).

They saw her experience and her qualifications. Most importantly, they saw a degree and an A-Level grade B in English.

"But do you have an NVQ in retail, or a Literacy Key Skills?"

So, not only is she 'over-qualified', but wrongly qualified.

Shithole country.

Balloon Sod wrote:Here's a nice little story for all you students:

My girlfriend has a degree in Criminal Psychology with plenty of knowledge of children. She has a wonderful CV; good jobs, good references, was a Samartian, has worked with special needs kids, etc.

The shitty play council around here went bust, leaving her with just a weekend job and us pretty skint.

She applied for another job, just a retail one (Don't expect big bucks after Uni. 22 for a decent minimum wage? She's on £4.72).

They saw her experience and her qualifications. Most importantly, they saw a degree and an A-Level grade B in English.

"But do you have an NVQ in retail, or a Literacy Key Skills?"

So, not only is she 'over-qualified', but wrongly qualified.

Shithole country.

No offence, but why is she applying for jobs that require qualifications she doesn't have? I could be the most highly qualified, multi-PhD holding Microbiologist in the world, but I'm not going to apply for a job to be a plumber am I?

I agree that I should pay something but this is way to much. They should keep it the way it is now.

No one can deny that society as a whole doesn't benefit from better technology, medical services, social services, art and entertainment. I don't think it's asking too much that those who are willing to devote their time these things aren't beaten over the head with massive debt as a reward for their efforts.

I was speaking to some American students who are over here for the year. They already pay pretty astronomical sums. Let's hope it doesn't happen over here.

Besides, my degree is not very resource intensive, I just need some lecturers, tutorial groups and access to a libary. How much can that cost? I'm pretty sure my fees are largely being used to finance people doing more exspensive degrees.

Skarjo wrote:

Balloon Sod wrote:Here's a nice little story for all you students:

My girlfriend has a degree in Criminal Psychology with plenty of knowledge of children. She has a wonderful CV; good jobs, good references, was a Samartian, has worked with special needs kids, etc.

The shitty play council around here went bust, leaving her with just a weekend job and us pretty skint.

She applied for another job, just a retail one (Don't expect big bucks after Uni. 22 for a decent minimum wage? She's on £4.72).

They saw her experience and her qualifications. Most importantly, they saw a degree and an A-Level grade B in English.

"But do you have an NVQ in retail, or a Literacy Key Skills?"

So, not only is she 'over-qualified', but wrongly qualified.

Shithole country.

No offence, but why is she applying for jobs that require qualifications she doesn't have? I could be the most highly qualified, multi-PhD holding Microbiologist in the world, but I'm not going to apply for a job to be a plumber am I?

She applied for a job in a shop. Card Factory or Woolworths or something.

Edit: Not sure if you noticed it, but the 'A-Level in English' being irrelevent, while a shitty Literacy Key Skills module being required is what irked me. You can spend 5 years+ in higher education and not be accepted, or take a 5 hour course in what a comma is and get the job. It's degrading.

I've made myself angry, so I'm off to bed. I'll squeeze my cat's head for a little bit to calm down.

Extralife wrote:I agree that I should pay something but this is way to much. They should keep it the way it is now.

No one can deny that society as a whole doesn't benefit from better technology, medical services, social services, art and entertainment. I don't think it's asking too much that those who are willing to devote their time these things aren't beaten over the head with massive debt as a reward for their efforts.

I was speaking to some American students who are over here for the year. They already pay pretty astronomical sums. Let's hope it doesn't happen over here.

Besides, my degree is not very resource intensive, I just need some lecturers, tutorial groups and access to a libary. How much can that cost? I'm pretty sure my fees are largely being used to finance people doing more exspensive degrees.

But you shouldn't be forcing people to pay for things that they don't necessarily want. If I knew that my tax money was going to fund someone's Sports Journalism "degree" at Manchester Met. I wouldn't be too pleased. What I'm suggesting is that any money saved by the increased fees either goes towards tax reductions (which it won't) or towards something that everyone will benefit from. The idea of writing off people's debt if they go into a teaching, healthcare or science based career is a good one.

John Galt wrote:

But you shouldn't be forcing people to pay for things that they don't necessarily want. If I knew that my tax money was going to fund someone's Sports Journalism "degree" at Manchester Met. I wouldn't be too pleased. What I'm suggesting is that any money saved by the increased fees either goes towards tax reductions (which it won't) or towards something that everyone will benefit from. The idea of writing off people's debt if they go into a teaching, healthcare or science based career is a good one.

There are plenty of things I pay for that I would rather not. Everything from the Iraq war to the bailout of the banks, has been partially funded from my money. That’s the way our society has arranged the tax system.

And it’s a good thing that we don’t get to opt out of paying for things we don’t want. Because there are plenty of people out there that would decide they didn’t need the police or the fire brigade. Plenty would decide that they don’t have kids so why should they fund any sort of education? How many would decide "I can afford BUPA so why should I pay for the NHS?"?

Moggy wrote:

John Galt wrote:

But you shouldn't be forcing people to pay for things that they don't necessarily want. If I knew that my tax money was going to fund someone's Sports Journalism "degree" at Manchester Met. I wouldn't be too pleased. What I'm suggesting is that any money saved by the increased fees either goes towards tax reductions (which it won't) or towards something that everyone will benefit from. The idea of writing off people's debt if they go into a teaching, healthcare or science based career is a good one.

There are plenty of things I pay for that I would rather not. Everything from the Iraq war to the bailout of the banks, has been partially funded from my money. That’s the way our society has arranged the tax system.

And it’s a good thing that we don’t get to opt out of paying for things we don’t want. Because there are plenty of people out there that would decide they didn’t need the police or the fire brigade. Plenty would decide that they don’t have kids so why should they fund any sort of education? How many would decide "I can afford BUPA so why should I pay for the NHS?"?

Technically if you pay for BUPA you pay the NHS twice as when there patients want to use NHS equipment, which is often, they get charged to do so.

Stig wrote:Personally I'm fortunate that my dad has both the money and will to not want either myself or my sister to leave Uni with debt, so he's basically paying it off for me at the end.

I go to a top University and do a decent degree (though perhaps not based on what HrC says...), so I should be ok job-wise.

If you are doing Comp Sci, heres the best tip ever... Do whatever you can to get experience whilst at uni... Program for free or do whatever you can to get as much business based experience before you finish. All the people I know who got jobs straight out of Uni did sandwich years or work placements before leaving. I did some voluntary stuff on the side but still wasn't enough.

Moggy wrote:

John Galt wrote:

But you shouldn't be forcing people to pay for things that they don't necessarily want. If I knew that my tax money was going to fund someone's Sports Journalism "degree" at Manchester Met. I wouldn't be too pleased. What I'm suggesting is that any money saved by the increased fees either goes towards tax reductions (which it won't) or towards something that everyone will benefit from. The idea of writing off people's debt if they go into a teaching, healthcare or science based career is a good one.

There are plenty of things I pay for that I would rather not. Everything from the Iraq war to the bailout of the banks, has been partially funded from my money. That’s the way our society has arranged the tax system.

And it’s a good thing that we don’t get to opt out of paying for things we don’t want. Because there are plenty of people out there that would decide they didn’t need the police or the fire brigade. Plenty would decide that they don’t have kids so why should they fund any sort of education? How many would decide "I can afford BUPA so why should I pay for the NHS?"?

And those people would be left to face the consequences. Things like the police, fire brigade and NHS are things that everyone needs though but higher education is something that an individual wants and should get by their own means. Education should be publicly funded until university because people often aren't able to make up their own minds about what they want until they're older. You're right: if left their own devices many (moronic) parents wouldn't pay for their kid's education if they were given the choice which is why it has to be forced until they're able to decide for themselves.

As for the Iraqi war, most people disagree with it and the fact that it's taken resources from other areas. If the government proposed a war top up fee I think it would meet with the same response I've given the top up fee here: that if you want it you should pay for it.

Balloon Sod wrote:

Skarjo wrote:

Balloon Sod wrote:Here's a nice little story for all you students:

My girlfriend has a degree in Criminal Psychology with plenty of knowledge of children. She has a wonderful CV; good jobs, good references, was a Samartian, has worked with special needs kids, etc.

The shitty play council around here went bust, leaving her with just a weekend job and us pretty skint.

She applied for another job, just a retail one (Don't expect big bucks after Uni. 22 for a decent minimum wage? She's on £4.72).

They saw her experience and her qualifications. Most importantly, they saw a degree and an A-Level grade B in English.

"But do you have an NVQ in retail, or a Literacy Key Skills?"

So, not only is she 'over-qualified', but wrongly qualified.

Shithole country.

No offence, but why is she applying for jobs that require qualifications she doesn't have? I could be the most highly qualified, multi-PhD holding Microbiologist in the world, but I'm not going to apply for a job to be a plumber am I?

She applied for a job in a shop. Card Factory or Woolworths or something.

Edit: Not sure if you noticed it, but the 'A-Level in English' being irrelevent, while a shitty Literacy Key Skills module being required is what irked me. You can spend 5 years+ in higher education and not be accepted, or take a 5 hour course in what a comma is and get the job. It's degrading.

I've made myself angry, so I'm off to bed. I'll squeeze my cat's head for a little bit to calm down.

That's absolutely ridiculous.

Seriously crazy.

Also: John Stait is one of the lucky ones.

Merry Christmas, Noobs! wrote:*never went to uni*

*is unemployed*