The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*

Fed up talking videogames? Why?
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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Alvin Flummux » Mon May 28, 2018 2:33 pm

I really don't get why people want to see the Old Republic era in the films, but I never did play KotOR. Seems like it'd be too far disconnected from the rest of the franchise. The idea of a bunch of Jedi & Sith going at it doesn't really appeal either, TBH.

I'm sure I'd enjoy it anyway though.

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Joer » Mon May 28, 2018 2:45 pm

Just been to see Solo and I don’t know if it’s just because of my expectations going in but I thought that was really good. Thought all the characters were great and the only thing I wasn’t really keen on was the droid who was the weakest droid there’s been I’ve felt.

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Alvin Flummux » Mon May 28, 2018 3:12 pm

Yeah, the droid was merely okay to me, but the wife really liked it.

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Hexx » Tue May 29, 2018 9:52 am

Some thoughts on why it's doing so badly

https://www.cbr.com/solo-star-wars-stor ... ox-office/

I've not been to see it, and don't feel oddly compelled to (Han has never been my favorite character). My 2 Star Wars loving friends are similar. None of us have any interest in it (and on Wednesday it was a surprise it was out the next day)

It's hard to put together why but Disney have...not killed but severally neutered my ongoing interest in Star Wars.

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Jamo3103 » Tue May 29, 2018 11:55 am

Some interesting points in that article and I think some of them definitely are contributing to the general publics lack of desire to see it. I don't think it necessarily matches up with why so many Star Wars fans aren't particularly interested though.

For me I was in a similar boat to you, in fact I only went to see it because two friends of mine went to see it and told me it was really good. In the end I was disappointed and didn't really enjoy it and I think the main reasons for that are exactly why I wasn't looking forward to it in the first place.

I'd assumed beforehand that it would be a film full of needless character exposition, exploring already established things about Han and actually showing them to us and I was exactly right. With the suggestion that we'll see more Solo films, a Lando film, a Boba Fett film etc. it's also something that is my biggest issue with the franchise going forward. Hopefully the struggles of Solo will make them rethink it and they'll be a little more creative.

As far as I'm concerned Disney's best use of Star Wars so far have been Rogue One and the animated show, Rebels. Both do use nostalgia to an extent and feature some big characters from previous films, however for the most part they explore entirely new characters and scenarios which makes them into far more compelling and interesting films. It doesn't have to be a totally different era, although for me that appeals because it makes the writers less constrained by established rules (such as the Sith rule of two) and the need to constantly reference the past. It just needs to be something new and different.

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Tomous » Tue May 29, 2018 12:27 pm

I think franchise and blockbuster fatigue are definitely contributing factors, but if the films to date had been brilliant that wouldn't have mattered-people would have been hyped and rushed out to see another. But after three films getting progressively worse people are losing interest.

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Preezy » Tue May 29, 2018 12:34 pm

It's the lack of variety that is killing it (relatively of course, they're still making plenty of money).

Every single Star Wars film has to have planet hopping, a space battle, The Force, Rebels and Imperials. And all of the reference points that go along with them.

Compare that to the MCU films, they've got so much more variety to keep things fresh and interesting. Black Panther is different to GotG, which is different to Winter Soldier, which is different to Iron Man, which is different to Doctor Strange etc etc.

Star Wars just feels stale, and they won't ever be able to change that because they'll always have to have the aforementioned things otherwise it'll stop being Star Wars. Quite the paradox.

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Hexx » Tue May 29, 2018 1:04 pm

Jamo3103 wrote:Saw Solo last night, really wasn't impressed.

My biggest concern going in was about the actors portraying both Han and Lando but I was pleasantly surprised, think they both did a great job. The issue was the plot, it just felt so bland and was completely lacking in any excitement, it addressed things about the character of Han which I really didn't need, or want to know and it was at least half an hour too long.

Probably the worst film in the franchise for me, it never reached the lows of the prequels at their worst but at the same time it lacked any of the high points which drag those films up.

After this and The Last Jedi I have to say I'm feeling quite down on Star Wars as a franchise, been a massive fan since I first saw the original trilogy of films 25 years ago but my interest is starting to wane. The prospect of Episode IX (which is largely about characters I have no investment in) and a load more films designed to fill story gaps which (in my opinion) don't need filling (Obi Wan, Lando, Boba etc.) just doesn't appeal.

I'd love to see more films set in the universe which explore unseen aspects of it, a totally different time period (such as the Jedi/Sith war) or perhaps a point of view we haven't seen in a film. I'd love for example to see a film set from the Empire's point of view during the Civil War, this was explored in one of the new canon books called Lost Stars and it is clear how the Empire see themselves as heroes whilst seeing the Rebels as galactic terrorists. Doubt we'll see anything like that explored in a film unfortunately.


I think the issue comes down to a few things for me

> The threw out a massively expanded universe that fans were invested in. Saying "commit to this again" was always going to be a hard sell when people saw that rich (and varied) world casually cast aside. It burned long time fans.
> They then went back to that well...You liked Thrawn? See how he exists in our NEW continuity.
> They've smashed the ongoing cohesive narrative. TPM led to AOTC led to ROTS led to ANH and so on. There's an ongoing organic story that tells of a changing and evolving universe. How the hell does ROTJ lead to TFA? The film doesn't know, or care. If it can't take 5-10 minutes to properly explain the world, why should anyone care? "Oh they look like Star Drestroyers!" doesn't count. This is doubled down from the first point where an established cohesive (ish :P) world was already in place. It's so disconnecting from the established universe, in a jarring manner rather than intriguing.
> Pointless Characters. Poe has no arc story in TFA. Other than to oppose the designated villain (I assume he was supposed to die off early on). Finn does nothing except being a red herring for the force user. Rey/Ren get ok stuff. Han/Leia get a massive short end of the script and character treatment. Luke is put in a mystery box.
> TLJ is set the day afterwards, and invalidates the previous film's victory.
> TLJ is clearly not build on "a plan". There's no full outline of the trilogy - they're making it up (or undermining previous films) wherever they need to. Why should audiences buy into that? In the hopes they pull desperate threads together in some as yet unplanned finale?
> Pointless Characters. Poe gets 1000s killed learning not to Mansplain. Finn could be extradited from the film and nothing would change (although more Rebels might live :P). Rey gets sucked into 2 awful story-lines with Skyping Ren and Luke's exile. Luke's character is murdered and desecrated.
> Superweapon fatigue. We've gone from Planet Killer Station to Planet Killer Station II (worst part of ROTJ) to HYPERSPACE CAPABLE SYSTEM KILLING PLANET to FLEETKILLER SHIP to PLANET KILLER SHIP to BASE KILLER ULTIMATE LASER (those last 3 in one film, or last 4 in the space of 4 narrative days). You can't have any sense of threat against such over the top elements.
> TFA relied on nostalgia. TLJ relied on Nostalgia, while sticking 2 fingers up to it (Like Star Trek Into Darkness). It's an odd feeling that they've got nothing substantively new to offer, but also degenerate what they''re relying on.



That's a lot of words for a "meh" feeling

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by TheChosenOne » Tue May 29, 2018 7:04 pm

I really enjoyed Solo, I don't think it's the best Star Wars film but it was fun and felt like Han to me which is all I really wanted. A lot of references also which I appreciated.

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Alvin Flummux » Tue May 29, 2018 9:29 pm

The references didn't feel too obvious or forced, either. There was one in particular that I caught, but don't know if anyone else did, that put a big smile on my face.

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:lol:

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Return_of_the_STAR » Thu May 31, 2018 11:17 pm

I’m going to see this tomorrow so will give my views then. I’ve avoided the spoilers but I can’t escape reading how poorly it’s performed. However everyone I’ve spoken to who’s seen it has loved it so I’m a bit confused. The reviews for me have all seemed good enough to ensure what would normally be good box office numbers so I can’t see that being the reason that people have stayed away. I can only assume that it is down to recent box office overload. The uk figures are particularly poor.

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Alvin Flummux » Thu May 31, 2018 11:50 pm

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:recent box office overload.


That and franchise fatigue. Although, it being 19 months until the next one should ensure it gets huge numbers.

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Return_of_the_STAR » Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:49 pm

Back from Solo. Really likes it. I hope the box office takings pick up as I really want to see more films with these characters.

especially with the Darth maul reveal and hoping it links in with Obi wan on tatooine

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Alvin Flummux » Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:42 pm

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:
especially with the Darth maul reveal and hoping it links in with Obi wan on tatooine


It can't.

See: Rebels.

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Hime » Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:47 pm

Hexx wrote:
Jamo3103 wrote:Saw Solo last night, really wasn't impressed.

My biggest concern going in was about the actors portraying both Han and Lando but I was pleasantly surprised, think they both did a great job. The issue was the plot, it just felt so bland and was completely lacking in any excitement, it addressed things about the character of Han which I really didn't need, or want to know and it was at least half an hour too long.

Probably the worst film in the franchise for me, it never reached the lows of the prequels at their worst but at the same time it lacked any of the high points which drag those films up.

After this and The Last Jedi I have to say I'm feeling quite down on Star Wars as a franchise, been a massive fan since I first saw the original trilogy of films 25 years ago but my interest is starting to wane. The prospect of Episode IX (which is largely about characters I have no investment in) and a load more films designed to fill story gaps which (in my opinion) don't need filling (Obi Wan, Lando, Boba etc.) just doesn't appeal.

I'd love to see more films set in the universe which explore unseen aspects of it, a totally different time period (such as the Jedi/Sith war) or perhaps a point of view we haven't seen in a film. I'd love for example to see a film set from the Empire's point of view during the Civil War, this was explored in one of the new canon books called Lost Stars and it is clear how the Empire see themselves as heroes whilst seeing the Rebels as galactic terrorists. Doubt we'll see anything like that explored in a film unfortunately.


I think the issue comes down to a few things for me

> The threw out a massively expanded universe that fans were invested in. Saying "commit to this again" was always going to be a hard sell when people saw that rich (and varied) world casually cast aside. It burned long time fans.
> They then went back to that well...You liked Thrawn? See how he exists in our NEW continuity.
> They've smashed the ongoing cohesive narrative. TPM led to AOTC led to ROTS led to ANH and so on. There's an ongoing organic story that tells of a changing and evolving universe. How the hell does ROTJ lead to TFA? The film doesn't know, or care. If it can't take 5-10 minutes to properly explain the world, why should anyone care? "Oh they look like Star Drestroyers!" doesn't count. This is doubled down from the first point where an established cohesive (ish :P) world was already in place. It's so disconnecting from the established universe, in a jarring manner rather than intriguing.
> Pointless Characters. Poe has no arc story in TFA. Other than to oppose the designated villain (I assume he was supposed to die off early on). Finn does nothing except being a red herring for the force user. Rey/Ren get ok stuff. Han/Leia get a massive short end of the script and character treatment. Luke is put in a mystery box.
> TLJ is set the day afterwards, and invalidates the previous film's victory.
> TLJ is clearly not build on "a plan". There's no full outline of the trilogy - they're making it up (or undermining previous films) wherever they need to. Why should audiences buy into that? In the hopes they pull desperate threads together in some as yet unplanned finale?
> Pointless Characters. Poe gets 1000s killed learning not to Mansplain. Finn could be extradited from the film and nothing would change (although more Rebels might live :P). Rey gets sucked into 2 awful story-lines with Skyping Ren and Luke's exile. Luke's character is murdered and desecrated.
> Superweapon fatigue. We've gone from Planet Killer Station to Planet Killer Station II (worst part of ROTJ) to HYPERSPACE CAPABLE SYSTEM KILLING PLANET to FLEETKILLER SHIP to PLANET KILLER SHIP to BASE KILLER ULTIMATE LASER (those last 3 in one film, or last 4 in the space of 4 narrative days). You can't have any sense of threat against such over the top elements.
> TFA relied on nostalgia. TLJ relied on Nostalgia, while sticking 2 fingers up to it (Like Star Trek Into Darkness). It's an odd feeling that they've got nothing substantively new to offer, but also degenerate what they''re relying on.



That's a lot of words for a "meh" feeling

Good post and spot on.

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Return_of_the_STAR » Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:04 am

Alvin Flummux wrote:
Return_of_the_STAR wrote:
especially with the Darth maul reveal and hoping it links in with Obi wan on tatooine


It can't.

See: Rebels.


i haven’t watched the cartoons. Why is that. Doesn’t this take place before Rebels. That’s a shame though, assuming that they don’t ignore the cartoons. I know they are currently considered canon though.

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Alvin Flummux » Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:56 am

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:
Alvin Flummux wrote:
Return_of_the_STAR wrote:
especially with the Darth maul reveal and hoping it links in with Obi wan on tatooine


It can't.

See: Rebels.


i haven’t watched the cartoons. Why is that. Doesn’t this take place before Rebels. That’s a shame though, assuming that they don’t ignore the cartoons. I know they are currently considered canon though.


Clone Wars features him, explaining how he came to survive. Sort of. Maul's arc was one of the least interesting parts of the whole thing at the time I watched it, but in hindsight it makes a lot of sense and fits Palpatine's machinations.

I've not seen Rebels yet. All I know is that it takes place maybe 5 years after Solo, 5 before ANH, and Maul is unaware of Obi-Wan's survival prior to that time.

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Jamo3103 » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:25 am

Hexx wrote:I think the issue comes down to a few things for me

> The threw out a massively expanded universe that fans were invested in. Saying "commit to this again" was always going to be a hard sell when people saw that rich (and varied) world casually cast aside. It burned long time fans.
> They then went back to that well...You liked Thrawn? See how he exists in our NEW continuity.
> They've smashed the ongoing cohesive narrative. TPM led to AOTC led to ROTS led to ANH and so on. There's an ongoing organic story that tells of a changing and evolving universe. How the hell does ROTJ lead to TFA? The film doesn't know, or care. If it can't take 5-10 minutes to properly explain the world, why should anyone care? "Oh they look like Star Drestroyers!" doesn't count. This is doubled down from the first point where an established cohesive (ish :P) world was already in place. It's so disconnecting from the established universe, in a jarring manner rather than intriguing.
> Pointless Characters. Poe has no arc story in TFA. Other than to oppose the designated villain (I assume he was supposed to die off early on). Finn does nothing except being a red herring for the force user. Rey/Ren get ok stuff. Han/Leia get a massive short end of the script and character treatment. Luke is put in a mystery box.
> TLJ is set the day afterwards, and invalidates the previous film's victory.
> TLJ is clearly not build on "a plan". There's no full outline of the trilogy - they're making it up (or undermining previous films) wherever they need to. Why should audiences buy into that? In the hopes they pull desperate threads together in some as yet unplanned finale?
> Pointless Characters. Poe gets 1000s killed learning not to Mansplain. Finn could be extradited from the film and nothing would change (although more Rebels might live :P). Rey gets sucked into 2 awful story-lines with Skyping Ren and Luke's exile. Luke's character is murdered and desecrated.
> Superweapon fatigue. We've gone from Planet Killer Station to Planet Killer Station II (worst part of ROTJ) to HYPERSPACE CAPABLE SYSTEM KILLING PLANET to FLEETKILLER SHIP to PLANET KILLER SHIP to BASE KILLER ULTIMATE LASER (those last 3 in one film, or last 4 in the space of 4 narrative days). You can't have any sense of threat against such over the top elements.
> TFA relied on nostalgia. TLJ relied on Nostalgia, while sticking 2 fingers up to it (Like Star Trek Into Darkness). It's an odd feeling that they've got nothing substantively new to offer, but also degenerate what they''re relying on.

That's a lot of words for a "meh" feeling


I agree 100% on all your points about the Last Jedi and the new trilogy as a whole, it's hugely flawed. TFA has elements which rely on knowledge of the (new) expanded universe in order to make any real sense, such as why we have a Resistance and a Republic. All the other films leave gaps of time in between but still manage to establish a cohesive narrative between films. The new trilogy largely feels disconnected from the original trilogy and the prequels. The character arcs are also particularly awful in TLJ.

I do however think that throwing out the original expanded universe was unavoidable and I'm fine with them cherry picking the best bits from it, such as Thrawn who was used brilliantly in Rebels and written with help from the original author. For all the good things in the original expanded universe there was also a lot of utter rubbish (like Chewie being killed by a moon :dread: )

I can understand why fans were annoyed because they've built up connections to some of the good stuff in it and having it written off after investing time and energy into it over many years is disappointing but I think it was unavoidable for the franchise to continue in any other form of media.

On an unrelated note, I notice a number of people above saying they haven't seen Rebels yet and I really can't recommend it enough, it has some absolutely brilliant characters and stories, tying up loose ends from The Clone Wars series whilst tying together elements of Revenge of the Sith, Rogue One and A New Hope. The first series admittedly is a little dull early on and definitely feels more like a kids show but it really finds its feet as the show goes on and tells some really interesting stories whilst also having more emotional depth than plenty of high profile TV shows which are aimed predominantly at adults.

What I think Star Wars really lacks as a franchise is someone behind the scenes ensuring we have one consistent universe, like the MCU does with Kevin Feige. Kathleen Kennedy is supposed to be doing that job but I don't really feel that she gets the franchise in the way that Feige gets Marvel. Dave Filoni who was behind Clone Wars/Rebels seems to have a far better understanding, as does Pablo Hidalgo who acts as a consultant for the Lucasfilm Story Group, yet neither of them have the power over the overall franchise which Kennedy does which is a great shame.

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Alvin Flummux » Sat Jun 02, 2018 2:30 pm

Jamo3103 wrote:For all the good things in the original expanded universe there was also a lot of utter rubbish (like Chewie being killed by a moon :dread: )


Of all the things you could choose to demonstrate the old EU's shitty stories (and there were a lot!), you use Chewie's epic demise? That was an amazing scene.

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PostRe: The Star Wars Thread v2 - *NO SPOILERS*
by Jamo3103 » Sat Jun 02, 2018 2:52 pm

Alvin Flummux wrote:
Jamo3103 wrote:For all the good things in the original expanded universe there was also a lot of utter rubbish (like Chewie being killed by a moon :dread: )


Of all the things you could choose to demonstrate the old EU's shitty stories (and there were a lot!), you use Chewie's epic demise? That was an amazing scene.


Wasn't a fan personally of that, think it was quite divisive amongst the community. To be totally honest I didn't like that whole Yuuzhan Vong era of stories, thought the concept of an enemy that existed outside of the force were interesting but I thought it was poorly executed for the most part.

It was also probably one of the biggest reasons for them to get rid of the old EU when Disney took over, it would have been easy enough to transition much of the EU over to the sequel trilogy but the disappearance of Chewbacca, explained away by "He had a moon dropped on him" would have been a bit of a stretch.


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