The tragedy of Baby P (please, no jokes, folks)

Even a terrorist knows his actions are wrong. Just because he says they are just for his cause, they are but hollow words. They're just murderers masquerading under their cause. If their cause was so just, then they'd do everything else first before resorting to murdering women and children. The bile and vitriol half of these capture islamic extremists spew forth is just too much, they hate Jews, for what?! You're a British born muslim you strawberry floating wanker, what has that female Jew done to warrant you murdering her? He's born in Britain, has the freedom of knowledge, the right to learn in a school, yet he resorts to violence? Well then he's a flawed strawberry floating evil individual then.


With regards to exile, send them off to anywhere, f**k them. I'd not let them be part of my society. What happens to them is not worth my money. This is all if I was a dictator and had limitless power, being omnipotent and prescient. If I was rich enough to buy a country, I'd buy a country and eject anyone that's a vile murderer. They would be exiled so they do not get the benefit of my society, they can live like our ancestors did in the forests and jungles.

The use of the word evil doesn't excuse their actions at all, because they knew full well what they were doing, it's not a justification at all. Evil actions are evil actions and they are done when someone abuses their responsibility and generally know the law and the difference between good and evil. There are grey areas for sure, but in this case...it's just so clear cut there is no other way to see it. They are evil for their actions and they will pay a price that our justice system will hand down. They weren't born evil, no one is born evil, we all make our own choices.

I think Godzilla has a point. I think that once you label someone evil you can say what you like about them without knowing the full circumstances for it happening. There could be all manner of psychological reasons but they go out of the window when 'evil' comes into it. The action itself may be intrinsically bad (we can agree that torturing and killing a child is an intrinsically bad action), but the people?

In this case in particular it's evident that more people are involved than just the parents. Are the social workers evil because they failed to protect Baby P? How about the police. You could say they didn't try hard enough to get him out of the place, so they must be evil.

This is a largely pointless discussion, though, that's not going to achieve much. I'll leave this thread saying that the three people convicted deserve the harshest punishment the law will allow but I do not agree that their punishment should match the crime.

FatDaz wrote:..."I sometimes go to the neighbours" i asked why and he repli`ed "I cant eat here as there is nothing clean"...

Heartbreaking stuff. I recall reading similar statements, only the kid screams to stay with abusive parents...

Keep giving them hell and doing your best to expose any oversights...

$ilva $anta wrote:Torturing a baby....can't be called evil now?...

How would you define evil, again (briefly, pretty-please)? Like Hitler?

$ilva $anta wrote:...And yes mic, being a murderer isn't exactly a good thing, I don't want to be a murderer :s It's not alright if someone else does it, but the god loving heathens seem to think god is fit enough to deliver judgement, if that **** were fit enough to deliver judgement we'd not be in a predicament like this. Judgement in the afterlife, what a load of pish...

Explain the bold bit - you lost me. Who are these 'god loving heathens'?

I'm confused - You wouldn't mind if they were murdered and think that they don't deserve protection, but conversely you wouldn't remove that protection yourself even if you could because of the innocents? Do you not see the contradiction in your position?

How many times can I say it? If I were sure that innocents could be taken out of harms way in the future forever, then I'd have no issue having these cretins murdered, but there's no system in place.



How would you define evil? Here's evil, our justice system couldn't protect anyone he killed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Tobin


How would you define evil? That's the whole issue here again, there's stuff that's clearly evil, and then there's stuff that's borderline and then grey areas. That's why I'm reluctant, even in my own dictatorship to take away hardcore rights. But those who constantly re-offend the law by murdering is clearly evil. Why would you murder if it's not in self defense? Why did they torture a baby? Why did Peter Tobin rape and murder women and then hide their bodies? There's evil afoot already. If you're saying evil is a state of mind and it's subjective, then that theory is flawed in itself. We have situations, we're all human, deciding to commit severe bodily harm for the sake of your own pleasure and to see someone suffer is quite clearly evil. A tattooist who inflicts pain does not do so for the pleasure, he does not want to inflict the pain but to only draw the tattoo on a person, that's not evil, where was the intention there? The other person wants that tattoo and suffers the pain.


Do you not see that I'm aware of what those actions would lead to and as much as I'd like for dirty criminals to be killed themselves, exiled or have the same fate suffered upon themselves, I would not go that far because I can see both sides of the coin? Do you need to point out to me something which is quite plainly obvious? You may as well ask a cricket player why they don't hit a six everytime, because there's a chance that they'll miss the ball and get caught out, so they don't keep swinging like crazy no matter how much they'd like to hit a six.

The word evil is being used here to separate people into groups, one which can be treated with rights, the other group who are clearly different from us can be treated how we please.

Funny that the same sort of thing has been said by very “evil” men in the past to allow ethnic cleansing.

There is no evil, there are simply people who make good and bad choices for either selfish or altruistic reasons.

The ones you have pointed out acted wickedly for self gratification, this doesn’t make them evil or grant them special status. It simply means we have to work a lot harder to protect everyone from them.

You say the system failed and I agree with you. The answer is no the slaughter of the guilty after the event. What will that do? It will only make us like those that committed the crime, as for whatever reason, selfish or otherwise we would be killing.

Another issue with this case is that the good people who chose to work in a profession whereby they could help people are now being seen as evil themselves. It’s a mess, these people are working in a broken system and sacking someone with or without pay does nothing other than make politicians look like they are doing something.

Personally I’d like a little bit of honour brought back to politics, never minds the children’s secretary firing people and saying “lessons will be learnt” you’re in charge, it happened on your watch, you failed and should stand down (without pay) It’s also worth noting that the Oh so wonderful inspectors had nothing negative to say during their last inspection of the protection agency…. now they are quick to point out the faults.

At the this juncture it's worth reminding everyone that, according to a chap from the NSPCC on the BBC News this morning, one child is killed by their parents every ten days in the UK.

In your discussions about 'evil' and your references to pederastic child killers, it's a little fact you might want to keep in mind. I don't have the figures for the number of children killed by 'stranger danger' every 10 days, but I'm willing to put money on the figure being very much lower...

'Evil'. It's hard to define, really, isn't it, when the cold facts of day get in the way...

Just like the justice system is inherently flawed and cannot always prevent injustice from being done, it's similar in that it's hard to define evil in words. There are set principles though that evil goes against, analysis of the situation, the intent, the frame of mind. The funny thing is that the courts look at this sort of stuff to decide the punishment anyway.


One child killed every ten days by their parents sounds a bit much. I wouldn't be surprised either way actually considering our large population and the amount of chavs and people who just don't care out there.


Edit:
Rosemary West
Ted Bundy
Peter Tobin


Evil through actions, intent and frame of mind.