The tragedy of Baby P (please, no jokes, folks)

JiggerJay wrote:

Hero of Canton wrote:Also, how the hell is he allowed to retain his anonymity?

Because as soon as his identity is revealed he will get gang raped in prision.

Gang raped to death if we're lucky.

I had to stop reading the Metro's 3 or so pages on this case, it's utterly mindboggling how in 60 social vists not one person questioned how one child could be so clumsy. More to the point, would any decent parent actually let their child get into such a ridculous number of accidents.
If I had a kid and he'd walked into three table legs in a week then you could be damn sure that I'd be keeping a very close eye on him!

Regarding social workers, isn't part of their job being able to judge people's character and mentally assess who might be a danger? I can't imagine that no matter how well these bastards acted in front of the social workers that there were no tell tale signs whatsoever.

Drunken_Master wrote:

Albear wrote:Whilst in theory I'm all for licensing, especially if it stops scumbags like this, I have no doubt the Government would strawberry float it all up like they have with adoption.

A couple, probably two of the most intelligent people I know and both in well paid jobs have had so much trouble jumping through the hoops that the system has setup, that they have now given up to adopt. Nice.

Why don't they just do it the good old fashioned way?

She had to have an operation which effectivly stopped her womb from working unfortunatly. It's really sad. I personally don't want kids, but for two people who do it must be terrible. I remember their age being questioned when they applied.

She's 35 and he's 36!

aaronay, it's a lot more complex than that and I don't have time to get into it now (also, I simply can't be arsed!) but essentially they analysed cultural trends and came to the conclusion that a drop in crime, when they'd been expecting a huge spike and the rise of the "super-predator", could be attributed largely to the fact that a lot of kids who would have likely grown up to be criminals were aborted. Read the book!

It's a good book, if a little dry. I remember that chapter well. The drop in Crime was innitially thought to be Rudolph Giuliani's no nonsense approach to crime. The chapter then details how 20 years earlier Abortion was legalised and made alot easier to access for mothers in poor communities, so that 20 years later there were far less men commiting crime.

I'm currently reading "How Economics explains nearly everything" Which is also very good.

Albear wrote:I'm currently reading "How Economics explains nearly everything" Which is also very good.

That's sat on my bedside table right next to me

Being on topic, I do think that for some reason, the social workers are being held more responsible for this baby's death than the parents who actually did all the damage. Sure, some practices need to be changed, and there's the ever-present desire to cut that pesky red tape, but it was a tragic mistake on their part.

Hey, did anyone hear the case of the 13 year old girl who fought for her right to die? She didn't want another heart transplant and on the radio said she was tired of having all the problems. I found it really depressing that such a young girl could come to such a decision. Not because she shouldn't (or should), but because you'd never expect anyone so young to want to let their lives finish prematurely.

Charles Manson wrote:Hey, did anyone hear the case of the 13 year old girl who fought for her right to die? She didn't want another heart transplant and on the radio said she was tired of having all the problems. I found it really depressing that such a young girl could come to such a decision. Not because she shouldn't (or should), but because you'd never expect anyone so young to want to let their lives finish prematurely.

I admired her because I thought she made the decision so as to go out with a bit of dignity and that she just didn't want to put up with the pain the operations would cause.

Personally I'd like to think I would fight to the absolute bitter end but I completely respect and admire her for what she decided.

Charles Manson wrote:Hey, did anyone hear the case of the 13 year old girl who fought for her right to die? She didn't want another heart transplant and on the radio said she was tired of having all the problems. I found it really depressing that such a young girl could come to such a decision. Not because she shouldn't (or should), but because you'd never expect anyone so young to want to let their lives finish prematurely.

A much more important point has been raised about whether or not a child (in this case 13) can fully-grasp the huge questions being with dealt with here. Again, on Newsnight last night, I watched a doctor responsible for drafting guidelines for all the UK's health practioners dealing with 0-18yr olds, calmly tell Paxo that, in his view, this child was capable of fully understanding the issues involved and was therefore not only entitled to give her consent, but for her views to be listened to and acted upon.

So, in the opinion of medical professionals and of the Courts, a 13 year old girl can now give her consent to refuse potentially life-saving treatment because she is 'fully capable of understanding the issues involved and therefore able to give her consent'?

Just so we all heard that loud and clear...

But she was tired of hospital visits and knows there could be complications anyway. The PCT were talking about having her taken away from her parents and then forcing her to have the operation.

Albear wrote:A couple, probably two of the most intelligent people I know and both in well paid jobs have had so much trouble jumping through the hoops that the system has setup, that they have now given up to adopt.

I'm sure his Narcolepsy and her Tourette's probably swayed the conclusion, though.

Albear wrote:She had to have an operation which effectivly stopped her womb from working unfortunatly. It's really sad. I personally don't want kids, but for two people who do it must be terrible. I remember their age being questioned when they applied.

Rent out your gf's womb? You'd make a packet!

Seriously though. I remember reading that, basically, so many people want to adopt (and so many "good" candidates), that the people selecting can afford to be complete dicks/picky, because there's so many applicants.

And Otoroc - given how angrily and vehemently Cameron attacked "self oversight", it hopefully signals a policy when he's in power.

Also it's always good, whatever the reason, when Brown gets kicked.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7724541.stm
There's a video clip there about the debate about this at PMQs. I'm with Cameron here.

Hexx wrote:

Albear wrote:She had to have an operation which effectivly stopped her womb from working unfortunatly. It's really sad. I personally don't want kids, but for two people who do it must be terrible. I remember their age being questioned when they applied.

Also it's always good, whatever the reason, when Brown gets kicked.

This.

Hero of Canton wrote:

jambot wrote:Licences

It makes so much sense. The problem is that it'd be classed as an infringement of human rights no doubt, and would invariably be regarded as classist when certain people aren't allowed kids simply because they're hovering somewhere around the poverty line.

But yeah. Increasingly seems like the way to go. But it will never happen. Unless you run for PM, jambot...

Democratically elected? Check the sig, baby. It's the rapid breeding of the scum that's protecting the more rapid breeding of the scum. Oligarchy ftw.

Corazon wrote:There's a graphic on the BBC website's initial report of the case that illustrates what the boy would have looked like when he died. Made me feel very queasy, in fact downright ill, and I rarely flinch at graphic violence. Disgusting.

I've not seen that but I thought it was bad enough them showing the pictures of his clothes on Breakfast this morning. I'm quite surprised that they did this without any 'scenes which some viewers may find disturbing' type comment before hand. Being rather flippant about it? Or maybe just thinking "Christ, if things have got this bad, surely there's nothing we can't show".

I've got a daughter roughly the same age and I'm finding the whole thing pretty hard to cope with to be honest.

When I hear a story a like this, I can't help but imagine if my nephews were in that position.

It's horrible.

Hero of Canton wrote:Another thing - the doctor who examined the baby 48 hours before his death failed to notice his broken spine and eight broken ribs. It's a quite astonishing catalogue of failure. Seemingly at every turn, people just didn't care enough to do anything about it.

That's unbelievable.

I do see what CJ is saying though. You just never know with the press. This kind of story (about the negligence of the social services etc) is all about the details.

MCN wrote:I just cannot comprehend how anyone could do that to a child.

Perhaps the child grew up to be the world's biggest terrorist and kills millions of innocent people. And these people came back in time to kill him before he could start his reign of terror.

Johnny Blaze wrote:

MCN wrote:I just cannot comprehend how anyone could do that to a child.

Perhaps the child grew up to be the world's biggest terrorist and kills millions of innocent people. And these people came back in time to kill him before he could start his reign of terror.

Surely they could have just shot him and then strawberry floated off?

I honestly don't know what to say about this story, I really am at a loss for words as so many failed this poor child and it isn't even the first time this sort of thing has happened.

It saddens me to be part of the human race, it really does.

jamcc wrote:

Hero of Canton wrote:Another thing - the doctor who examined the baby 48 hours before his death failed to notice his broken spine and eight broken ribs. It's a quite astonishing catalogue of failure. Seemingly at every turn, people just didn't care enough to do anything about it.

That's unbelievable.

I do see what CJ is saying though. You just never know with the press. This kind of story (about the negligence of the social services etc) is all about the details.

According to Metro newspaper (not the best source, I know) the Doctor didn't actually examine the baby...he/she refused because the baby was grouchy (or something along those lines)

Nearly everyone (the social workers, the council) are trying to shift the blame onto the Doctor.

Sarge wrote:

jamcc wrote:

Hero of Canton wrote:Another thing - the doctor who examined the baby 48 hours before his death failed to notice his broken spine and eight broken ribs. It's a quite astonishing catalogue of failure. Seemingly at every turn, people just didn't care enough to do anything about it.

That's unbelievable.

I do see what CJ is saying though. You just never know with the press. This kind of story (about the negligence of the social services etc) is all about the details.

According to Metro newspaper (not the best source, I know) the Doctor didn't actually examine the baby...he/she refused because the baby was grouchy (or something along those lines)

Nearly everyone (the social workers, the council) are trying to shift the blame onto the Doctor.

Disgusting. People should just admit that they strawberry floated up. The Social Services strawberry floated up the most, but lets not forget who actually did the crimes.

MCN wrote:

Johnny Blaze wrote:

MCN wrote:I just cannot comprehend how anyone could do that to a child.

Perhaps the child grew up to be the world's biggest terrorist and kills millions of innocent people. And these people came back in time to kill him before he could start his reign of terror.

Surely they could have just shot him and then strawberry floated off?

Yes, but perhaps this kid, when he grew up, tortured the families of the people that travelled back in time, so they decided to dish out a similiar style of torture on him while he was just a baby... that or maybe he's immune to bullets, which is how he became such a powerful terrorist in the future.