Total Biscuit's legacy: GamerGate, etc.

Tafdolphin wrote:...Like I said before, this is the legacy of John Bain.

It can't be said that you haven't been vocal in pressing this point. You rail against moderate, middle ground views - and by this I don't mean "Hitler was sometimes a nice guy" - as if things are always black and white when, on most issues, there is lots of grey. In the end, your arguments push me to side with the moderate views merely because your own approach feels so extreme.

jawafour wrote:

Tafdolphin wrote:...Like I said before, this is the legacy of John Bain.

It can't be said that you haven't been vocal in pressing this point. You rail against moderate, middle ground views - and by this I don't mean "Hitler was sometimes a nice guy" - as if things are always black and white when, on most issues, there is lots of grey. In the end, your arguments push me to side with the moderate views merely because your own approach feels so extreme.

This is a problem I know I have, and I've butted heads with a few others on here because I tend be so vocal about my viewpoints. It's also, strangely enough, something I seek to avoid when talking to people about these things IRL.

My viewpoint at the moment is that we are living in very divided times and the normalisation of far-right ideas is, to me, a huge threat. Centrism, again to me, is not a valid point of view when one of the opposing sides is obviously wrong.

My problem with Boogie specifically is that, to me, it is patently obviously he is not a Centrist. I'm not saying he's a Milo, but I'd definitely put him in the same group as Ian Miles Chong and John Bain. Boogie is more subtle however, and actively courts the middle ground. I believe this is why you, jawa, are so defensive of him and his viewpoints. Which is absolutely fine. My girlfriend pointed out that I do the same and have a blind spot about the things I like.* But still. I dislike the guy, potentially more than his peers, because his viewpoint is cynically geared towards maximising profit and minimising controversy (which hasn't worked as, every now and again, the the mask slips).







*Case in point, this article on God of War got me really het up. Once I'd cooled down, I tried to look at it more objectively and ended up agreeing with a lot of the writer's points.

EDIT: If any of this sounds patronising I apologise. It's not meant to be, it's meant to be me trying to explain my views as simply as I can.

Skarjo wrote:That's not what he's saying at all, and that's not Boogie's character either. It's literally just a case of 'Remember that you're representing actual companies and that those comments can stick'. Hell, half of this discussion is centred on the fact that TB told someone to get cancer and die and was not allowed to live it down literally to his dying day. I agree with Jawa that 'SHUT. THE. strawberry float. UP.' was probably not the most constructive sign off, but imagining that the tweet is some passive aggressively threatening call to arms is just mental.

He might not mean it that way but it is in his character to have those kind of reactions. The way he words that tweet, while aimed at the ex-bioware guy, still puts out that message of "Don't talk ill of John or it might be bad for you.". He can say that but he should probably pick his words better than "Gamers will always associate your vitriol with your games. SHUT. THE. strawberry float. UP."
The tweet might not be a call to arms but it does show how careless we are with our language on twitter. It's clear he means people will vote with their wallets if they don't like the developers but the way he words it almost comes off as a warning, the message stops being "it can be bad for business so be careful" and instead comes off as "it'll be bad for you, keep your mouth shut" which only normalises the very thing people are accusing TB of being guilty of.
Also it's not like Boogie isn't upset or anything about TB throwing him under the bus previously.

Tafdolphin wrote:...Boogie is more subtle however, and actively courts the middle ground. I believe this is why you, jawa, are so defensive of him and his viewpoints. Which is absolutely fine... But still. I dislike the guy, potentially more than his peers, because his viewpoint is cynically geared towards maximising profit and minimising controversy (which hasn't worked as, every now and again, the the mask slips).

No-one is perfect, Taf. We all say things that, upon reflection, make us wonder why we took that path. Today these instances get more attention because, quite often, they're on electronic channels and thus easy to hear and review. Perhaps the best thing to do is avoid posting spur-of-the moment stuff... or, perhaps better, not record or post at all. But that's difficult now as social media is so pervasive and, potentially, addictive; plus us humans like to feel involved and to share our views. Everyone says stupid things, smart things, observant things and silly things - and it's easy to make judgements based on a small proportion of those words.

That was a ramble. And one that's not gonna change anything. Centrist gonna centrist.

jawafour wrote:

Tafdolphin wrote:...Boogie is more subtle however, and actively courts the middle ground. I believe this is why you, jawa, are so defensive of him and his viewpoints. Which is absolutely fine... But still. I dislike the guy, potentially more than his peers, because his viewpoint is cynically geared towards maximising profit and minimising controversy (which hasn't worked as, every now and again, the the mask slips).

No-one is perfect, Taf. We all say things that, upon reflection, make us wonder why we took that path. Today these instances get more attention because, quite often, they're on electronic channels and thus easy to hear and review. Perhaps the best thing to do is avoid posting spur-of-the moment stuff... or, perhaps better, not record or post at all. But that's difficult now as social media is so pervasive and, potentially, addictive; plus us humans like to feel involved and to share our views. Everyone says stupid things, smart things, observant things and silly things - and it's easy to make judgements based on a smal proportion of those words.

That was a ramble. And one that's not gonna change anything. Centrist gonna centrist.

This was a common argument when PewDiePie shouted the N word at another player in PUBG and it was just as much nonsense then. I have certainly done things I regret in my life on the spur of the moment, but never once have I thought to shout racial slurs at someone in frustration, nor mock a suicide victim because...well...I was on stream? I think that's the argument?

You like who you like, but after a point the willingness to forgive these people their infractions again and again simply comes across as appeasement.

Dig Dug wrote:

Skarjo wrote:That's not what he's saying at all, and that's not Boogie's character either. It's literally just a case of 'Remember that you're representing actual companies and that those comments can stick'. Hell, half of this discussion is centred on the fact that TB told someone to get cancer and die and was not allowed to live it down literally to his dying day. I agree with Jawa that 'SHUT. THE. strawberry float. UP.' was probably not the most constructive sign off, but imagining that the tweet is some passive aggressively threatening call to arms is just mental.

He might not mean it that way but it is in his character to have those kind of reactions. The way he words that tweet, while aimed at the ex-bioware guy, still puts out that message of "Don't talk ill of John or it might be bad for you.". He can say that but he should probably pick his words better than "Gamers will always associate your vitriol with your games. SHUT. THE. strawberry float. UP."
The tweet might not be a call to arms but it does show how careless we are with our language on twitter. It's clear he means people will vote with their wallets if they don't like the developers but the way he words it almost comes off as a warning, the message stops being "it can be bad for business so be careful" and instead comes off as "it'll be bad for you, keep your mouth shut" which only normalises the very thing people are accusing TB of being guilty of.
Also it's not like Boogie isn't upset or anything about TB throwing him under the bus previously.

Except the thing is, he's right though. People generally speaking find gloating at the death of someone to be distasteful, and if you're in a situation where your person is synonymous or at least strongly equated with a brand or company then making such inflammatory comments are bad idea, PR wise.

How many people have been dropped from sponsorship deals, or lost contracts, or just found themselves unemployable after ill-thought out comments on sensitive issues? The idea that pointing out that it's generally going to have poor consequences if you're seen dancing on the grave of a young cancer victim is hardly controversial.

As I say, maybe I'm just taking something entirely different away from that tweet than you guys are - maybe Boogie's become synonymous with letting loose the dogs of war against devs he doesn't like but if he is that passed me by. I still thought he was just the dude who made all the videos about weight loss and depression.

Tafdolphin wrote:This was a common argument when PewDiePie shouted the N word at another player in PUBG and it was just as much nonsense then. Never once have I thought to shout the N word at someone in frustration, nor mock a suicide victim because...well...I was on stream? I think that's the argument?

You like who you like, but after a point the willingness to forgive these people their infractions again and again simply comes across as appeasement.

Taf, we're going from Total Biscuit to Boogie to PewDiePie pretty rapidly here. People do say stupid things sometimes, especially in "live" situations although, sure, that doesn't mean it's acceptable.

I'm genuinely unsure whether your zero-tolerance, high-focus approach is a good way forward or not. I can't argue with the ideal scenario that "one occasion is too many" is the right way to drive behaviours; but, man, the unrelenting intensity of your style can get backs up. Maybe you're too unaccepting of behaviours or I'm too accepting... I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Tafdolphin wrote:My viewpoint at the moment is that we are living in very divided times and the normalization of far-right ideas is, to me, a huge threat. Centrism, again to me, is not a valid point of view when one of the opposing sides is obviously wrong.

Oh, okay - so, having excluded two out of three, at least you've explained the only point-of-view you consider valid. I'm really not at all convinced about your claim of the 'normalization' of so-called 'far-right ideas'. Where is this happening and which ideas? Let's establish what you actually mean by 'far-right' and see if you might have a point (btw, and for example, I don't consider enforcing existing immigration law - here or in the US - to be 'far-right'; it's just law enforcement).

On the subject of TB: I've stayed away from videos or posts either showering his memory in maudlin, self-indulgent praise or those having a sly dig at a man who clearly rubbed them up the wrong way. He seemed to be a pretty divisive character one way or another - I certainly took issue with his opinions and actions (see: CoxCon controversy) on more than one occasion. Does he have a 'legacy'? I don't think so. He was a guy who made video game reviews. He had some opinions. Some people were okay with them and some were not. But he's dead now, so none of that matters and we should all move on.

jawafour wrote:

Tafdolphin wrote:This was a common argument when PewDiePie shouted the N word at another player in PUBG and it was just as much nonsense then. Never once have I thought to shout the N word at someone in frustration, nor mock a suicide victim because...well...I was on stream? I think that's the argument?

You like who you like, but after a point the willingness to forgive these people their infractions again and again simply comes across as appeasement.

Taf, we're going from Total Biscuit to Boogie to PewDiePie pretty rapidly here.

Because I think it's a relevent comparison. They're all YouTube celebrities with suspect views.

People do say stupid things sometimes, especially in "live" situations although, sure, that doesn't mean it's acceptable.

There's a vast difference between stupid and offensive. These weren't kids mispronouncing someone's name.

I'm genuinely unsure whether your zero-tolerance, high-focus approach is a good way forward or not.

Important to note that my zero tolerance stance is towards intolerance

I can't argue with the ideal scenario that "one occasion is too many" is the right way to drive behaviours; but, man, the unrelenting intensity of your style can get backs up. Maybe you're too unaccepting of behaviours or I'm too accepting... I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle.

When these behaviours are racist and literally mocking a suicide victim (during which Boogie's 'respect the dead' rhetoric was suspiciously absent), not being accepting of them, as far as I'm concerned, is the only way. I mean, what's the alternative?

Tafdolphin wrote:

jawafour wrote:I'm genuinely unsure whether your zero-tolerance, high-focus approach is a good way forward or not.

Important to note that my zero tolerance stance is towards intolerance

Your zero tolerance is for anything that doesn't tie up exactly with your way of thinking.

jawafour wrote:

Tafdolphin wrote:

jawafour wrote:I'm genuinely unsure whether your zero-tolerance, high-focus approach is a good way forward or not.

Important to note that my zero tolerance stance is towards intolerance

Your zero tolerance is for anything that doesn't tie up exactly with your way of thinking.

“The so-called paradox of freedom is the argument that freedom in the sense of absence of any constraining control must lead to very great restraint, since it makes the bully free to enslave the meek. The idea is, in a slightly different form, and with very different tendency, clearly expressed in Plato.

Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.”

― Karl R. Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies

Now in comic form:

jawafour wrote:

Tafdolphin wrote:

jawafour wrote:I'm genuinely unsure whether your zero-tolerance, high-focus approach is a good way forward or not.

Important to note that my zero tolerance stance is towards intolerance

Your zero tolerance is for anything that doesn't tie up exactly with your way of thinking.

No, my zero tolerance is for intolerance (thanks Dig Dug for posting that, it was next on my list!). Boogie expressed intolerance when he spent 2 minutes screaming into a mic 'Look at me I'm dead look at me I'm dead I should be in a Logan Paul video.'

You chose to defend these actions with the worst kind of obsfuricating 'we all make mistakes' rhetoric. I chose not to accept this or the horrible gooseberry fool this guy spews.

I'm happy with my stance.

Tafdolphin wrote:...You chose to defend these actions with the worst kind of obsfuricating 'we all make mistakes' rhetoric...

I don't defend bad actions. I do try and look at all of the evidence and avoid rushing to cast judgement. With our differing approaches, it feels that we will rarely achieve any kind of agreement.

Bar on one thing - we are both happy with our stance.

jawafour wrote:

Tafdolphin wrote:...You chose to defend these actions with the worst kind of obsfuricating 'we all make mistakes' rhetoric...

I don't defend bad actions. I do try and look at all of the evidence and avoid rushing to cast judgement. With our differing approaches, it feels that we will rarely achieve any kind of agreement.

Bar on one thing - we are both happy with our stance.

This is what kills me here, that you don't see that you are defending bad actions! Your lines about 'we all say stupid things' is specifically a defence of Boogie taunting a suicide victim (the appropriateness of which you pointedly have not commented on).

I get that you like the guy, but in this instance I've used as illustration he's indefensible.

Tafdolphin wrote:...Your lines about 'we all say stupid things' is specifically a defence of Boogie taunting a suicide victim (the appropriateness of which you pointedly have not commented on)...

Okay, I'd like to look at that specific point. You said:

Tafdolphin wrote:Boogie expressed intolerance when he spent 2 minutes screaming into a mic 'Look at me I'm dead look at me I'm dead I should be in a Logan Paul video.

I'm looking at the Boogie vids but I can't locate this moment; although I think I do recall seeing it. But... surely that was a "joke"? Highlighting that Logan Paul showed a dead person in his video? I have found this Francis (i.e. parody) vid where he mentions Logan Paul: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXBXIeBMD9I (the Logan Paul bit starts at 3:49) but I can't see the moment you mentioned. If you could point me to it, I will respond.

jawafour wrote:

Tafdolphin wrote:...Your lines about 'we all say stupid things' is specifically a defence of Boogie taunting a suicide victim (the appropriateness of which you pointedly have not commented on)...

Okay, I'd like to look at that specific point. You said:

Tafdolphin wrote:Boogie expressed intolerance when he spent 2 minutes screaming into a mic 'Look at me I'm dead look at me I'm dead I should be in a Logan Paul video.

I'm looking at the Boogie vids but I can't locate this moment; although I think I do recall seeing it. But... surely that was a "joke"? Highlighting that Logan Paul showed a dead person in his video? I have found this Francis (i.e. parody) vid where he mentions Logan Paul: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXBXIeBMD9I (the Logan Paul bit starts at 3:49) but I can't see the moment you mentioned. If you could point me to it, I will respond.

https://clips.twitch.tv/TalentedFaintSwordJKanStyle

It was the first post of resetera thread that started this whole thing.

....Wait, that's your 'taunting a suicide victim' thing?

... Bloody hell, Taf, that's a stretch. I mean, it's a gooseberry fool joke, even if it is a parody character, but he's not exactly telling Amanda Todd to drink bleach here.

Tafdolphin wrote:https://clips.twitch.tv/TalentedFaintSwordJKanStyle

It was the first post of resetera thread that started this whole thing.

I have seen that video before... it's a clip from a livestream where Boogie digs at Logan Paul for showing a dead person in his video! It's cack-handed and something that, with a bit of thought, he probably wouldn't have presented in that way; but - in my view - it's not something that you're making it out to be i.e. "taunting a suicide victim".

And I was "specifically defending" the taunting of someone who committed suicide? My word. That's quite an accusation.

Can you taunt someone that's dead?

Preezy wrote:Can you taunt someone that's dead?

You continue to taunt LFC's Champion's League campaign.