[DISCUSSION] The Politics Thread

What happened to the Native Americans can also be seen as the imposition of borders upon a previously borderless society

Looking to history isn't as relevant as it may seem though, the breakthroughs in transport and communication and the importance of international business and diplomacy make the world today very different to, say, 50 odd years ago.

I think the EU is fundamentally a good thing (and it's worth mentioning that the EU is not really just one thing but a bunch of different bodies and organisations which perform different functions) but just not everyone understands it.

Lucien » Tue May 27, 2014 10:00 pm wrote:

Qikz » 0000 wrote:

a stealth plan to bring about 'ever closer integration' (social, economic and political), to erase national borders ('open borders'), to subsume national governments in favour of central rule from within the EU itself, etc.

I don't understand why removing national borders is a bad thing. We're all the same species and we're all from the same planet. Why the hell is there borders in the first place? They're a manmade concept and in the light of things shouldn't have existed in the first place.

Those imaginary lines have caused the deaths of billions of our species since it's creation.

Borders are important. We are the same species but we are not the same. Just look to history and you'll see examples of changes for the worst, because borders couldn't be patrolled and cultures clashed.

Many people call what happened to the Native Americans genocide. Large influxes of Christians turned countries into Christian states, sometimes without invasion.

Africa soon will host the biggest collection of Muslims on the planet. Should millions of them just be allowed to catch a boat to the UK because we're the same species? Islamification sounds like a dystopian sci-fi novel but things like that are going to be big issues soon.

I think really a lot of people are aware of that, plus the cheapening of labour, and that's why they vote for parties like UKIP. It's not racism, or if it is by definition it's the cleverer kind. Doubtless a few Native Americans wanted peace with white preachers of 'Manifest destiny' which saw them as inferior and wiped them out.

Stop linking to the Native American thing, it has absolutely nothing to do with Europe at all. That's just an unbelievably stupid argument.

And you are worried about "islamification". That almost sounds like you have some prejudices against other cultures there.

Jay Adama » Tue May 27, 2014 11:32 pm wrote:Looking to history isn't as relevant as it may seem though, the breakthroughs in transport and communication and the importance of international business and diplomacy make the world today very different to, say, 50 odd years ago.

Overstated point, if you ask me. Technology is always improving. But humans always stay the same. Assuming the world is more enlightened nowadays is the most dangerous thing you can do. People have been saying "the world's a different place now" since...well, almost forever.

Just the other day, I watched a funny sketch of a couple of Indian call center workers, putting on a Scottish accent for their customers. The comments on youtube were absolutely vile. "strawberry float you white *******, one day you'll be the slaves in the call centers" etc.

Technology has brought those who want to be brought together, together. The world will never be unified. How can we unify completely different cultures, when young boys still fight other boys from different schools?

The strawberry float has happened here. Talk of cultural superiority and what not. Disgusting opinions from some people here, you should be ashamed.

PCCD » Tue May 27, 2014 5:17 pm wrote:

Qikz » Tue May 27, 2014 4:46 pm wrote:

a stealth plan to bring about 'ever closer integration' (social, economic and political), to erase national borders ('open borders'), to subsume national governments in favour of central rule from within the EU itself, etc.

I don't understand why removing national borders is a bad thing. We're all the same species and we're all from the same planet. Why the hell is there borders in the first place? They're a manmade concept and in the light of things shouldn't have existed in the first place.

Those imaginary lines have caused the deaths of billions of our species since it's creation.

But, but foreigners! They wouldn't be local or anything

That simply is NOT the argument, and restating it time and again won't make it so. If you think it's fine for nation states to be denuded of their individuality by the EU, that's fine - but millions of people across the EU disagree and would prefer to preserve the integrity of their national identity (me included). I really enjoy being British, being English, with all the richness of our cultural heritage that that represents. I don't want this incredible nation to be swamped by the bland homogeneity of the EU superstate; I want to feel that every country across Europe has its own very individual identity - those differences mean such a lot to such a huge number of people - language, culture, history, all are so important in defining who we are what our place is, both in Europe and the world.

Nothing at all to do with the 'bloody foreigners!'; everything to do with preserving the differences that together create a rich and diverse collection of nation states.

Cal » Wed May 28, 2014 10:08 am wrote: but millions of people across the EU disagree and would prefer to preserve the integrity of their national identity (me included).

But millions more agree with the EU or at least with pro-EU parties. Including in this country.

the integrity of their national identity (me included). I really enjoy being British, being English, with all the richness of our cultural heritage that that represents

I know I keep saying this but our ENTIRE national identity is the fact we're an island state who over the centuries have housed many people from many different nations. Infact I don't think you'll find many actually native British people in England at all, didn't most of them flee to wales when we were invaded by the saxons/romans?

I'm proud of the fact we've been a culturally diverse country and our ancestors are a mix of all different cultures and races. That's the most amazing thing about our country and I want that for the rest of the world too. How can you say we'd lose our national identity when our entire identity is being diverse? I mean even our food is a blend of various cultures dishes thrown together.

Qikz » Wed May 28, 2014 10:17 am wrote:

the integrity of their national identity (me included). I really enjoy being British, being English, with all the richness of our cultural heritage that that represents

I know I keep saying this but our ENTIRE national identity is the fact we're an island state who over the centuries have housed many people from many different nations. Infact I don't think you'll find many actually native British people in England at all, didn't most of them flee to wales when we were invaded by the saxons/romans?

I'm proud of the fact we've been a culturally diverse country and our ancestors are a mix of all different cultures and races. That's the most amazing thing about our country and I want that for the rest of the world too. How can you say we'd lose our national identity when our entire identity is being diverse? I mean even our food is a blend of various cultures dishes thrown together.

My problem with national identity is that it changes so fast. I would argue that England is nothing like it was back in the 70's or 80's. You can kind of see the foundations of the society we are today but it's really different. Maybe living in London has given me a bit of a unrealistic view of how much the country has changed.

The visual look of England has changed what we wear on a day to day basis has changed, class barriers have been eroded. We've become a far less religious place, more excepting of homosexuals. Also most peoples out look on the world has changed a lot as it's has become progressively easier to travel to other parts of the world.

Please excuse my ignorance but can someone educate me on the EU policies that erode national identity?

Hime » Wed May 28, 2014 10:17 am wrote:Please excuse my ignorance but can someone educate me on the EU policies that erode national identity?

I was going to make a joke here about how reducing roaming charges also reduced ones national identity but then I saw this:
http://manchestergazette.co.uk/2014/04/07/paul-nuttall-slams-eu-mobile-phone-charges-decision/27133

strawberry floating hell.

Hime » Wed May 28, 2014 10:17 am wrote:Please excuse my ignorance but can someone educate me on the EU policies that erode national identity?

See: 'Open Borders' - the Trojan Horse of EU 'closer integration'. Think about how that works.

Cal » Wed May 28, 2014 11:27 am wrote:

Hime » Wed May 28, 2014 10:17 am wrote:Please excuse my ignorance but can someone educate me on the EU policies that erode national identity?

See: 'Open Borders' - the Trojan Horse of EU 'closer integration'. Think about how that works.

And why is people moving around a bad thing?

bear » Wed May 28, 2014 11:26 am wrote:

Hime » Wed May 28, 2014 10:17 am wrote:Please excuse my ignorance but can someone educate me on the EU policies that erode national identity?

I was going to make a joke here about how reducing roaming charges also reduced ones national identity but then I saw this:
http://manchestergazette.co.uk/2014/04/07/paul-nuttall-slams-eu-mobile-phone-charges-decision/27133

strawberry floating hell.

How about they don't increase the costs and stop being greedy. They could easily drop all roaming charges without increasing the cost.

Cal » Wed May 28, 2014 10:27 am wrote:

Hime » Wed May 28, 2014 10:17 am wrote:Please excuse my ignorance but can someone educate me on the EU policies that erode national identity?

See: 'Open Borders' - the Trojan Horse of EU 'closer integration'. Think about how that works.

OH gooseberry fool I CAN GO TO ANOTHER COUNTRY EASILY


THERE IS NOW NO NATIONAL IDENTITY BECAUSE OF THIS


THIS MAKES PERFECT SENSE

Piers Morgan and Joey Barton are on the same episode of QT this week.



Definitely watching though

That show has just become a parody of itself now.

Cal, I asked this before but you forgot to answer as you were obviously very busy - can you give five specific examples of bills/laws passed in the EU that have negatively impacted Britain/UK? Appreciated.

Cal » Wed May 28, 2014 9:08 am wrote:

PCCD » Tue May 27, 2014 5:17 pm wrote:

Qikz » Tue May 27, 2014 4:46 pm wrote:

a stealth plan to bring about 'ever closer integration' (social, economic and political), to erase national borders ('open borders'), to subsume national governments in favour of central rule from within the EU itself, etc.

I don't understand why removing national borders is a bad thing. We're all the same species and we're all from the same planet. Why the hell is there borders in the first place? They're a manmade concept and in the light of things shouldn't have existed in the first place.

Those imaginary lines have caused the deaths of billions of our species since it's creation.

But, but foreigners! They wouldn't be local or anything

That simply is NOT the argument, and restating it time and again won't make it so. If you think it's fine for nation states to be denuded of their individuality by the EU, that's fine - but millions of people across the EU disagree and would prefer to preserve the integrity of their national identity (me included). I really enjoy being British, being English, with all the richness of our cultural heritage that that represents. I don't want this incredible nation to be swamped by the bland homogeneity of the EU superstate; I want to feel that every country across Europe has its own very individual identity - those differences mean such a lot to such a huge number of people - language, culture, history, all are so important in defining who we are what our place is, both in Europe and the world.

Nothing at all to do with the 'bloody foreigners!'; everything to do with preserving the differences that together create a rich and diverse collection of nation states.

That's, like, the definition of the 'bloody foreigners' argument.

In other news, Nigel Farage is a 'dimwitted racist', says the founder of UKIP. Lols (I should add, the following article contains racist language attributed to Farage)

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... ?CMP=fb_gu

Ginga » Wed May 28, 2014 1:49 pm wrote:Cal, I asked this before but you forgot to answer as you were obviously very busy - can you give five specific examples of bills/laws passed in the EU that have negatively impacted Britain/UK? Appreciated.

Man this is tough I found Schengen Agreement in 1985 and Schengen Convention in 1990 but the UK is in neither of these things so I guess they don't count.