US Politics

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captain red dog
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PostRe: US Politics - Trump abandons G7 joint statement
by captain red dog » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:59 pm

Moggy wrote:
Qikz wrote:If cancelling military exercises helps with peace then that's a good thing.


Not if it alienates a key ally and causes an emboldened North Korea to strike out in the future.

Every military exercise ratchets up the tension and increases the risk of some kind of strike.

I'd much rather the US tones down the rhetoric first in the interests of dialogue and diplomacy. The US can afford to step back first on this.

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PostRe: US Politics - Trump abandons G7 joint statement
by Moggy » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:10 pm

captain red dog wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Qikz wrote:If cancelling military exercises helps with peace then that's a good thing.


Not if it alienates a key ally and causes an emboldened North Korea to strike out in the future.

Every military exercise ratchets up the tension and increases the risk of some kind of strike.

I'd much rather the US tones down the rhetoric first in the interests of dialogue and diplomacy. The US can afford to step back first on this.


Appeasement rarely works, especially when somebody like Trump suddenly decides to do something like this without agreeing it with the main US ally in the region. South Korea is the country most threatened by North Korea, don’t you think they deserve to have some sort of say in this?

What Trump has done is meet a brutal dictator who still has concentration camps. He’s had a nice photo opportunity, eyed up some real estate for condos and given in to demands to stop military exercises. And in return he’s got nothing except for slightly pissing off an ally. After pissing off 6 allies just a few days ago.

Maybe this will all work out. I suspect though that Kim Jong Un will want something else in a few weeks/months. And then something else. And then something else...and the whole time he will be putting more and more people into concentration camps. And the threat of war will still be there if anybody annoys “little rocket man” or if Trump suddenly decides he doesn’t like his new friend anymore.

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Irene Demova
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PostRe: US Politics - Trump abandons G7 joint statement
by Irene Demova » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:14 pm

Moggy wrote:Appeasement rarely works, especially when somebody like Trump suddenly decides to do something like this without agreeing it with the main US ally in the region. South Korea is the country most threatened by North Korea, don’t you think they deserve to have some sort of say in this?

They've been trying to have peace talks for a whole year already. The reason they're struggling is because the Korean War ceasefire is between the US and DPRK, South Korea has been having as much say as a puppet state since the ceasefire.

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PostRe: US Politics - Trump abandons G7 joint statement
by Moggy » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:18 pm

Irene Demova wrote:
Moggy wrote:Appeasement rarely works, especially when somebody like Trump suddenly decides to do something like this without agreeing it with the main US ally in the region. South Korea is the country most threatened by North Korea, don’t you think they deserve to have some sort of say in this?

They've been trying to have peace talks for a whole year already. The reason they're struggling is because the Korean War ceasefire is between the US and DPRK, South Korea has been having as much say as a puppet state since the ceasefire.


A whole year? It was less than a year ago that he threatened N Korea with “fire and fury”. Trump is not stable, he’ll pal up with Kim today, next week he may completely change his mind. And the exact same thing goes for Kim.

Sure the US needs to sort out their ceasefire with N Korea, but you’ll never have proper peace while South Korea are left out or ignored.

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PostRe: US Politics - Trump abandons G7 joint statement
by Nibble » Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:12 pm

Alvin Flummux wrote:
KK wrote:Relations souring even further with Canada:

Donald’s Trump’s chief economic adviser said the US pulled out of a G7 communique because the Canadian prime minister, Justin Trudeau, “stabbed us in the back” and accused the leader of one America’s most important allies of playing a “sophomoric political stunt for domestic consumption”.

In an extraordinary interview with CNN’s State of the Union on Sunday, Larry Kudlow, who was present for negotiations at the G7 summit in Quebec over the weekend, said Trudeau had instigated “a betrayal” and was “essentially double-crossing President Trump”.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... rea-summit


I thought Kudlow looked (and sounded) drunk as gooseberry fool in that interview.


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captain red dog
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PostRe: US Politics - Trump abandons G7 joint statement
by captain red dog » Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:31 pm

Moggy wrote:
Irene Demova wrote:
Moggy wrote:Appeasement rarely works, especially when somebody like Trump suddenly decides to do something like this without agreeing it with the main US ally in the region. South Korea is the country most threatened by North Korea, don’t you think they deserve to have some sort of say in this?

They've been trying to have peace talks for a whole year already. The reason they're struggling is because the Korean War ceasefire is between the US and DPRK, South Korea has been having as much say as a puppet state since the ceasefire.


A whole year? It was less than a year ago that he threatened N Korea with “fire and fury”. Trump is not stable, he’ll pal up with Kim today, next week he may completely change his mind. And the exact same thing goes for Kim.

Sure the US needs to sort out their ceasefire with N Korea, but you’ll never have proper peace while South Korea are left out or ignored.

Let's be honest, South Korea will toe the line the US dictates. They have as much to gain in a lasting peace as anyone.

Yes the NK regime is despicable, but so are a whole host of other regimes we happily cosy up to.

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PostRe: US Politics - Trump abandons G7 joint statement
by Preezy » Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:37 pm

Moggy wrote:Trump is not stable

Trump himself said that he's a stable genius. Why would he lie? Fake news!

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PostRe: US Politics - Trump abandons G7 joint statement
by Moggy » Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:37 pm

captain red dog wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Irene Demova wrote:
Moggy wrote:Appeasement rarely works, especially when somebody like Trump suddenly decides to do something like this without agreeing it with the main US ally in the region. South Korea is the country most threatened by North Korea, don’t you think they deserve to have some sort of say in this?

They've been trying to have peace talks for a whole year already. The reason they're struggling is because the Korean War ceasefire is between the US and DPRK, South Korea has been having as much say as a puppet state since the ceasefire.


A whole year? It was less than a year ago that he threatened N Korea with “fire and fury”. Trump is not stable, he’ll pal up with Kim today, next week he may completely change his mind. And the exact same thing goes for Kim.

Sure the US needs to sort out their ceasefire with N Korea, but you’ll never have proper peace while South Korea are left out or ignored.

Let's be honest, South Korea will toe the line the US dictates. They have as much to gain in a lasting peace as anyone.

Yes the NK regime is despicable, but so are a whole host of other regimes we happily cosy up to.


You think Trump cosying up to Kim is going to result in a lasting peace? And that it’s worthwhile cosying up to despicable regimes?

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PostRe: US Politics - Trump abandons G7 joint statement
by Preezy » Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:39 pm

Realpolitik is bestpolitik

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lex-man
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PostRe: US Politics - Trump abandons G7 joint statement
by lex-man » Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:40 pm

captain red dog wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Irene Demova wrote:
Moggy wrote:Appeasement rarely works, especially when somebody like Trump suddenly decides to do something like this without agreeing it with the main US ally in the region. South Korea is the country most threatened by North Korea, don’t you think they deserve to have some sort of say in this?

They've been trying to have peace talks for a whole year already. The reason they're struggling is because the Korean War ceasefire is between the US and DPRK, South Korea has been having as much say as a puppet state since the ceasefire.


A whole year? It was less than a year ago that he threatened N Korea with “fire and fury”. Trump is not stable, he’ll pal up with Kim today, next week he may completely change his mind. And the exact same thing goes for Kim.

Sure the US needs to sort out their ceasefire with N Korea, but you’ll never have proper peace while South Korea are left out or ignored.

Let's be honest, South Korea will toe the line the US dictates. They have as much to gain in a lasting peace as anyone.

Yes the NK regime is despicable, but so are a whole host of other regimes we happily cosy up to.


NK are actually worse than the people we cosy up to.

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Irene Demova
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PostRe: US Politics - Trump abandons G7 joint statement
by Irene Demova » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:00 pm

lex-man wrote:NK are actually worse than the people we cosy up to.

The Saudis are literally carrying out a genocide in Yemen right now dude

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PostRe: US Politics - Trump abandons G7 joint statement
by lex-man » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:04 pm

Irene Demova wrote:
lex-man wrote:NK are actually worse than the people we cosy up to.

The Saudis are literally carrying out a genocide in Yemen right now dude


Yeah, I think I was wrong there.

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PostRe: US Politics - Trump abandons G7 joint statement
by Albear » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:12 pm

I'm sorry Lex-man, I don't want to have to warn/ban you, but you leave me little choice unless you follow forum protocol.

Rather than admitting to an error or a mistake, Please ensure to pick one of the following moving forward:

- Shifting of the goal posts
- Tell Irene he just doesn't understand
- Pretend that the term Saudi is now offensive due to a made up story, and that Irene is just ignorant
- Spend the next 4 hours picking out all the bad things North Korea has done, and then split up Irene's post line by line inserting the links
- Create a Strawman argument
- Post a Gif
- Tell Irene he's triggered
- Post a Tweet from the LGBT community (it doesn't matter if you agree with this or not)

I don't want to lock this thread but I will if the sort of behaviour displayed by Lexman continues.

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PostRe: US Politics - Trump abandons G7 joint statement
by Kezzer » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:42 pm

Skarjo :x

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PostRe: US Politics - Trump abandons G7 joint statement
by lex-man » Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:20 pm

Irene Demova wrote:
lex-man wrote:NK are actually worse than the people we cosy up to.

The Saudis are literally carrying out a genocide in Yemen right now dude



You don't understand Irene, if you just ignore Saudi Arab then North Korea are much worse. Also don't you know that the 'S' word is now offensive. I think you're triggered.

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Rightey
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PostRe: US Politics - Trump abandons G7 joint statement
by Rightey » Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:33 pm

I think cancelling the war games is ultimately a good thing for stability, as it will at least cool the rhetoric, and in reality probably not greatly impact the US and Korea's ability to work together, I mean they just had them a few months ago, so I think they have a few years before they become rusty.

I also think it's a pretty big double standard that whenever Russia or China have war games the US says they are sabre rattling, provocative, etc. but when the US does it, it's a show of solidarity and friendship.

That being said, there's no way North Korea will give up their nukes, they would have to be actually insane given what happened to Iraq and Libya after they gave up their weapons of mass destruction. Ultimately, I think we'll see a China type situation where trade starts to happen, loads of US companies start investing and the US and North just stop talking about nukes and shift the conversation to human rights.

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PostRe: US Politics - Trump abandons G7 joint statement
by Alvin Flummux » Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:57 pm

538 has a pretty good piece on the summit:

“We will be fine!” President Trump wrote before meeting North Korean leader Kim Jong Un on Tuesday morning. A few hours later, Trump strode across a red carpet to shake the hand and squeeze the arm of Kim, the murderous and nuclear-armed dictator of North Korea. It was the first known meeting between two men holding these jobs.

It was a powerful moment. But was it a consequential one? Trump and Kim are now engaged in what will likely be the biggest deal either of them ever has to make — a back-and-forth game of negotiation and guile. The initial accounting of the summit has called Kim the “cannier negotiator,” having extracted concessions both expected and surprising from the United States while agreeing only to soft promises. But if the mere occurrence of the summit lowers the probability of nuclear war even a little, might it have been worth it?

In Singapore, Trump and Kim sat briefly for the cameras before heading to a closed-door meeting with only their translators. “I feel really great,” Trump said. “We’re going to have a great discussion and, I think, tremendous success. It will be tremendously successful.”

“The past worked as fetters on our limbs,” a somewhat more poetic Kim said in Korean. “And the old prejudices and practices worked as obstacles on our way forward. But we overcame all of them, and we are here today.”

With these gestures and statements, the two countries entered the second stage of a standoff that has morphed from a game of nuclear chicken into a classic negotiation. Earlier this month, after talking with some game theorists and Korean Peninsula experts, I argued that the way Trump successfully navigated Part 1 — “fire and fury” and all the rest — may be a liability in Part 2. Unpredictability can be a blessing in dangerous, high-speed contests, but a curse when making sober foreign policy agreements.

And it’s still unclear just how tremendously successful the summit was. The joint statement signed by Trump and Kim is short (less than 400 words) and anodyne, lacking schedules and specifics. It hews closely to the pre-summit expectations: North Korea will “work towards” denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula and the U.S. will “commit” to providing security guarantees in exchange. It also provides for further talks between Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and a “relevant high-level” North Korean official. Outside the statement, Trump also promised to stop U.S. joint military exercises with South Korea — what he called “war games.”

The result was a stark departure from the Trump administration’s self-professed “We’re America, Bitch” doctrine and the aggressive bluster toward close allies at the G7 summit days ago.

There is plenty that happened in Singapore that can be seen as a win for Kim: The U.S. decision to abandon the military exercises; the U.S. agreeing that the “Korean Peninsula” should be denuclearized — geographic language that North Korea prefers because it interprets it as applying to U.S. forces in the region, too; the absence of the words “verifiable” and “irreversible” in the statement; the absence of any mention of human rights; and the fact that Trump agreed to even take a meeting with a brutal dictator in the first place. And perhaps Kim had already extracted his quarry before the meeting even began. The photos with the American president, and even just those of the countries’ flags side by side, will likely prove potent talking points in the North.

Indeed, much of the early hot-taking seems to be that “Kim won” — that we got played, that this was just a photo op, and that it was symbolism over substance. If Trump felt this way, he smiled through it. He called it a “tremendous 24 hours.”

And maybe it was, assuming these loose commitments are really the start of a process that leads to a denuclearized North Korea. Not all games are zero-sum, as simple as one party losing and the other gaining. There are games where there is mutual benefit to be enjoyed. And symbolism matters. Perhaps this diligent scorekeeping and hot-take-making ignores what is, one must admit, a fairly big deal.
The meeting may well mark the beginning of the end of anxious cycles of nuclear brinkmanship and nuclear testing. And it may decrease the chance, even a little, that we all die in a nuclear holocaust.

So at least we might have that going for us.


https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ho ... singapore/

I think Trump's giving away far too much in exchange for, well, no real commitments or concessions on the part of the North Koreans. But that's what he does - he goes into negotiations and he caves, according to those who have dealt with him.

Time will tell if this ends up being the start of something good, but I don't hold any confidence that it will.

One day, I know we'll meet again, under the Iron Sky...
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PostRe: US Politics - Trump abandons G7 joint statement
by Harry Ola » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:05 pm

This is pretty incredible ….


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PostRe: US Politics - Trump abandons G7 joint statement
by Errkal » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:23 pm

Florida was issuing carry hidden licenses without background checks because the person that did the checks forgot her password.

https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2018/0 ... ets-login/

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PostRe: US Politics - Trump abandons G7 joint statement
by Saint of Killers » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:53 pm

I saw my first MAGA hat today :lol: :(

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S: Neither was the last one. It was a robbery. M: Really? S: Yeah. She stole my heart. And my crown. (❍ᴥ❍ʋ)

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