US Politics

PostRe: US Politics by **Tafdolphin** » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:49 am

speedboatchase wrote:
Hexx wrote:
speedboatchase wrote:
Moggy wrote:
speedboatchase wrote:
Garth wrote:Well you're not going to find much if you're not allowed to interview anyone else.

Or if there's no corroborating evidence to find. This time last week the FBI were absolutely vital to this process, now they're controlled by Trump in a huge conspiracy?

You are choosing a strange hill to die on.

No, I just disagree. Lots of people would disagree with you outside of this forum, and that's fine.

You’re ‘disagreeing’ on verifiable facts though

So that’s not disagreeing.

That’s you choosing to be wrong to fit your bias and worldview

That’s not ‘fine’.

I'd be happy for the report to be released publicly, and think it should. Transparency is all this should be key.

Bottom line though is that there is nothing that could've been turned up or not turned up in a week that would've changed a single Republican or Democrat senator's mind. For Republicans, this is happening before the mid-terms, end of. For the Democrats, the goalposts have to keep moving past the mid-terms. The whole process is just the most insanely obvious partisan nonsense I've ever seen in US politics in my lifetime, and two people are used by both sides to create a narrative that gives them a mathematical edge. We're never going to know what happened and the residual rage on one side after the vote is going to further corrode US society. I genuinely think that country is strawberry floated at this point beyond repair.

This is a real, real bad take. You may as well state that the whole criminal justice system is pointless.

The long and short of it is this: this is a job interview. The man in question has not only shown himself to be of a temperament incompatible for the position but has multiple outstanding sexual assault claims against him. At the very least the process should be halted so they can, to the best of their abilities, determine the legitimacy of these claims. The FBI report that was allowed does not appear to have served this purpose.

You are right on one matter however, America is strawberry floated either way.

PostRe: US Politics by **speedboatchase** » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:57 am

Tafdolphin wrote:
speedboatchase wrote:
Hexx wrote:
speedboatchase wrote:
Moggy wrote:
speedboatchase wrote:
Garth wrote:Well you're not going to find much if you're not allowed to interview anyone else.

Or if there's no corroborating evidence to find. This time last week the FBI were absolutely vital to this process, now they're controlled by Trump in a huge conspiracy?

You are choosing a strange hill to die on.

No, I just disagree. Lots of people would disagree with you outside of this forum, and that's fine.

You’re ‘disagreeing’ on verifiable facts though

So that’s not disagreeing.

That’s you choosing to be wrong to fit your bias and worldview

That’s not ‘fine’.

I'd be happy for the report to be released publicly, and think it should. Transparency is all this should be key.

Bottom line though is that there is nothing that could've been turned up or not turned up in a week that would've changed a single Republican or Democrat senator's mind. For Republicans, this is happening before the mid-terms, end of. For the Democrats, the goalposts have to keep moving past the mid-terms. The whole process is just the most insanely obvious partisan nonsense I've ever seen in US politics in my lifetime, and two people are used by both sides to create a narrative that gives them a mathematical edge. We're never going to know what happened and the residual rage on one side after the vote is going to further corrode US society. I genuinely think that country is strawberry floated at this point beyond repair.

This is a real, real bad take to a degree that makes me question the intelligence of the poster, who I'm rather glad doesn't post here all that often.

Mystifying.

I'll ignore the pointless insults and clarify if anything is ambiguous in that sentence: I'm specifically talking about Dr Ford's accusation. Without vital testimony details that can be corroborated or denied via an alibi from Kavanaugh, how can we find the truth? Aside from either a full admission of guilt from Kavanaugh or Judge, it's difficult for me to see how that specific accusation can move forward without the aforementioned details.

PostRe: US Politics by **Tafdolphin** » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:58 am

Amended my post there. The initial one was very kneejerky.

I still think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the way the justice system works however. None of this is about proving undeniable truth, it's about proving a version of the truth beyond reasonable doubt, something which could easily be established if the FBI had been asked to do their job: is this man an appropriate choice for a role in the highest court in the land?

Multiple independent sources, organisations and witnesses have come forward, knowing they'll take an extreme amount of heat from their decision to speak out, and said no, he's not.

It's not about proving absolutely that he sexually assaulted Dr Ford.

PostRe: US Politics by **Alvin Flummux** » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:58 am

Perhaps they could be corroborated or denied if the FBI were allowed to interview the dozens of people who came forward to them over the course of this week?

PostRe: US Politics by **Lex-Man** » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:09 pm

speedboatchase wrote:
Tafdolphin wrote:
speedboatchase wrote:
Hexx wrote:
speedboatchase wrote:
Moggy wrote:
speedboatchase wrote:
Garth wrote:Well you're not going to find much if you're not allowed to interview anyone else.

Or if there's no corroborating evidence to find. This time last week the FBI were absolutely vital to this process, now they're controlled by Trump in a huge conspiracy?

You are choosing a strange hill to die on.

No, I just disagree. Lots of people would disagree with you outside of this forum, and that's fine.

You’re ‘disagreeing’ on verifiable facts though

So that’s not disagreeing.

That’s you choosing to be wrong to fit your bias and worldview

That’s not ‘fine’.

I'd be happy for the report to be released publicly, and think it should. Transparency is all this should be key.

Bottom line though is that there is nothing that could've been turned up or not turned up in a week that would've changed a single Republican or Democrat senator's mind. For Republicans, this is happening before the mid-terms, end of. For the Democrats, the goalposts have to keep moving past the mid-terms. The whole process is just the most insanely obvious partisan nonsense I've ever seen in US politics in my lifetime, and two people are used by both sides to create a narrative that gives them a mathematical edge. We're never going to know what happened and the residual rage on one side after the vote is going to further corrode US society. I genuinely think that country is strawberry floated at this point beyond repair.

This is a real, real bad take to a degree that makes me question the intelligence of the poster, who I'm rather glad doesn't post here all that often.

Mystifying.

I'll ignore the pointless insults and clarify if anything is ambiguous in that sentence: I'm specifically talking about Dr Ford's accusation. Without vital testimony details that can be corroborated or denied via an alibi from Kavanaugh, how can we find the truth? Aside from either a full admission of guilt from Kavanaugh or Judge, it's difficult for me to see how that specific accusation can move forward without the aforementioned details.

But we do have a number of people who have claimed that have cast doubt on Kavanaugh and while that might not be good enough for a criminal conviction it does suggest he is unsuitable to sit on the supreme court. Which is really what we're talking about.

Also the FBI should be able to investigate the matter in an impartial manner as they're not controlled by either party, which will lead to a report that'll give a better idea of what's being alleged, so an informed vote can take place.

PostRe: US Politics by **speedboatchase** » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:11 pm

Alvin Flummux wrote:Perhaps they could be corroborated or denied if the FBI were allowed to interview the dozens of people who came forward to them over the course of this week?

The specific people who Dr Ford's lawyers wanted the FBI to interview (all are here: https://twitter.com/ThePlumLineGS/statu ... 0747857920) back up the fact the history of the allegation, but don't include new, specific information about the event itself that could be corroborated.

Do I think any of this has been handled well? Not at all. As I said, one side want to rush this through, another wants to ensure there is no vote until the mid-terms. Would be perfectly happy for the investigation to run longer, for findings to be available to the public. At the same time, unless new corroborative details came to light or a confession was made, I stand by what I said about the fact one side will win here and none of us will fully know what happened.

PostRe: US Politics by **speedboatchase** » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:13 pm

lex-man wrote:
speedboatchase wrote:
Tafdolphin wrote:
speedboatchase wrote:
Hexx wrote:
speedboatchase wrote:
Moggy wrote:
speedboatchase wrote:
Garth wrote:Well you're not going to find much if you're not allowed to interview anyone else.

Or if there's no corroborating evidence to find. This time last week the FBI were absolutely vital to this process, now they're controlled by Trump in a huge conspiracy?

You are choosing a strange hill to die on.

No, I just disagree. Lots of people would disagree with you outside of this forum, and that's fine.

You’re ‘disagreeing’ on verifiable facts though

So that’s not disagreeing.

That’s you choosing to be wrong to fit your bias and worldview

That’s not ‘fine’.

I'd be happy for the report to be released publicly, and think it should. Transparency is all this should be key.

Bottom line though is that there is nothing that could've been turned up or not turned up in a week that would've changed a single Republican or Democrat senator's mind. For Republicans, this is happening before the mid-terms, end of. For the Democrats, the goalposts have to keep moving past the mid-terms. The whole process is just the most insanely obvious partisan nonsense I've ever seen in US politics in my lifetime, and two people are used by both sides to create a narrative that gives them a mathematical edge. We're never going to know what happened and the residual rage on one side after the vote is going to further corrode US society. I genuinely think that country is strawberry floated at this point beyond repair.

This is a real, real bad take to a degree that makes me question the intelligence of the poster, who I'm rather glad doesn't post here all that often.

Mystifying.

I'll ignore the pointless insults and clarify if anything is ambiguous in that sentence: I'm specifically talking about Dr Ford's accusation. Without vital testimony details that can be corroborated or denied via an alibi from Kavanaugh, how can we find the truth? Aside from either a full admission of guilt from Kavanaugh or Judge, it's difficult for me to see how that specific accusation can move forward without the aforementioned details.

But we do have a number of people who have claimed that have cast doubt on Kavanaugh and while that might not be good enough for a criminal conviction it does suggest he is unsuitable to sit on the supreme court. Which is really what we're talking about.

Also the FBI should be able to investigate the matter in an impartial manner as they're not controlled by either party, which will lead to a report that'll give a better idea of what's being alleged, so an informed vote can take place.

I agree. I don't think either a single Republican or Democrat would ever vote beyond party lines on this no matter what is ever found or not found, but I think for the public's trust the investigation should've been as transparent and comprehensive as necessary.

PostRe: US Politics by **Lex-Man** » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:18 pm

speedboatchase wrote:
lex-man wrote:
speedboatchase wrote:
Tafdolphin wrote:
speedboatchase wrote:
Hexx wrote:
speedboatchase wrote:
Moggy wrote:
speedboatchase wrote:
Garth wrote:Well you're not going to find much if you're not allowed to interview anyone else.

Or if there's no corroborating evidence to find. This time last week the FBI were absolutely vital to this process, now they're controlled by Trump in a huge conspiracy?

You are choosing a strange hill to die on.

No, I just disagree. Lots of people would disagree with you outside of this forum, and that's fine.

You’re ‘disagreeing’ on verifiable facts though

So that’s not disagreeing.

That’s you choosing to be wrong to fit your bias and worldview

That’s not ‘fine’.

I'd be happy for the report to be released publicly, and think it should. Transparency is all this should be key.

Bottom line though is that there is nothing that could've been turned up or not turned up in a week that would've changed a single Republican or Democrat senator's mind. For Republicans, this is happening before the mid-terms, end of. For the Democrats, the goalposts have to keep moving past the mid-terms. The whole process is just the most insanely obvious partisan nonsense I've ever seen in US politics in my lifetime, and two people are used by both sides to create a narrative that gives them a mathematical edge. We're never going to know what happened and the residual rage on one side after the vote is going to further corrode US society. I genuinely think that country is strawberry floated at this point beyond repair.

This is a real, real bad take to a degree that makes me question the intelligence of the poster, who I'm rather glad doesn't post here all that often.

Mystifying.

I'll ignore the pointless insults and clarify if anything is ambiguous in that sentence: I'm specifically talking about Dr Ford's accusation. Without vital testimony details that can be corroborated or denied via an alibi from Kavanaugh, how can we find the truth? Aside from either a full admission of guilt from Kavanaugh or Judge, it's difficult for me to see how that specific accusation can move forward without the aforementioned details.

But we do have a number of people who have claimed that have cast doubt on Kavanaugh and while that might not be good enough for a criminal conviction it does suggest he is unsuitable to sit on the supreme court. Which is really what we're talking about.

Also the FBI should be able to investigate the matter in an impartial manner as they're not controlled by either party, which will lead to a report that'll give a better idea of what's being alleged, so an informed vote can take place.

I agree. I don't think either a single Republican or Democrat would ever vote beyond party lines on this no matter what is ever found or not found, but I think for the public's trust the investigation should've been as transparent and comprehensive as necessary.

I think you're being too cynical. While there is certainly a bloke that wouldn't vote outside party lines there is a significant minority that would.

If this wasn't the case Trump and the GOP would be having a far easier time getting stuff though Congress as they have a majority.

PostRe: US Politics by **speedboatchase** » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:25 pm

lex-man wrote:
speedboatchase wrote:
lex-man wrote:
speedboatchase wrote:
Tafdolphin wrote:
speedboatchase wrote:
Hexx wrote:
speedboatchase wrote:
Moggy wrote:
speedboatchase wrote:
Garth wrote:Well you're not going to find much if you're not allowed to interview anyone else.

Or if there's no corroborating evidence to find. This time last week the FBI were absolutely vital to this process, now they're controlled by Trump in a huge conspiracy?

You are choosing a strange hill to die on.

No, I just disagree. Lots of people would disagree with you outside of this forum, and that's fine.

You’re ‘disagreeing’ on verifiable facts though

So that’s not disagreeing.

That’s you choosing to be wrong to fit your bias and worldview

That’s not ‘fine’.

I'd be happy for the report to be released publicly, and think it should. Transparency is all this should be key.

Bottom line though is that there is nothing that could've been turned up or not turned up in a week that would've changed a single Republican or Democrat senator's mind. For Republicans, this is happening before the mid-terms, end of. For the Democrats, the goalposts have to keep moving past the mid-terms. The whole process is just the most insanely obvious partisan nonsense I've ever seen in US politics in my lifetime, and two people are used by both sides to create a narrative that gives them a mathematical edge. We're never going to know what happened and the residual rage on one side after the vote is going to further corrode US society. I genuinely think that country is strawberry floated at this point beyond repair.

This is a real, real bad take to a degree that makes me question the intelligence of the poster, who I'm rather glad doesn't post here all that often.

Mystifying.

I'll ignore the pointless insults and clarify if anything is ambiguous in that sentence: I'm specifically talking about Dr Ford's accusation. Without vital testimony details that can be corroborated or denied via an alibi from Kavanaugh, how can we find the truth? Aside from either a full admission of guilt from Kavanaugh or Judge, it's difficult for me to see how that specific accusation can move forward without the aforementioned details.

But we do have a number of people who have claimed that have cast doubt on Kavanaugh and while that might not be good enough for a criminal conviction it does suggest he is unsuitable to sit on the supreme court. Which is really what we're talking about.

Also the FBI should be able to investigate the matter in an impartial manner as they're not controlled by either party, which will lead to a report that'll give a better idea of what's being alleged, so an informed vote can take place.

I agree. I don't think either a single Republican or Democrat would ever vote beyond party lines on this no matter what is ever found or not found, but I think for the public's trust the investigation should've been as transparent and comprehensive as necessary.

I think you're being too cynical. While there is certainly a bloke that wouldn't vote outside party lines there is a significant minority that would.

If this wasn't the case Trump and the GOP would be having a far easier time getting stuff though Congress as they have a majority.

Perhaps, although it does appear as though everything in the US political, and thus partisan, like never before. Someone on the previous page was wondering why Trump has so many rallies when he's president. That's because it's no longer about winning an election and governing for the country - on day 1 you start campaigning for the next election, and thus elevate the mid-terms to that status. If you can't keep your base rabid and radicalised, the other's side rabid base will outnumber you. I do think there's a worst-case scenario that can very easily unfold in which this Kavanaugh process ignites the GOP base to the point that they retain House and Senate next month. If they do that, I think Trump winning in 2020 is a foregone conclusion and we're gonna see complete civil breakdown.

PostRe: US Politics by **Jenuall** » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:33 pm

Tafdolphin wrote:Amended my post there. The initial one was very kneejerky.

I still think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the way the justice system works however. None of this is about proving undeniable truth, it's about proving a version of the truth beyond reasonable doubt, something which could easily be established if the FBI had been asked to do their job: is this man an appropriate choice for a role in the highest court in the land?

Multiple independent sources, organisations and witnesses have come forward, knowing they'll take an extreme amount of heat from their decision to speak out, and said no, he's not.

It's not about proving absolutely that he sexually assaulted Dr Ford.

Exactly this. There is sufficient doubt right now that he is a suitable candidate for the job, and certainly enough to warrant a full investigation to ascertain both the veracity of the allegations against him as well as the broader simple question - is he an appropriate person for this position? Even based on what we know now the answer to that would appear to be no!

There is also the fact that we know almost incontrovertibly that he lied during his statements to the senate judiciary committee. Innocent people do not behave in this manner, and even ignoring the the sexual allegation element to this (not that you can!) someone who wishes to stand in one of the most powerful positions in the united states should not be a proven liar!

PostRe: US Politics by **Moggy** » Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:51 pm

Jenuall wrote:Innocent people do not behave in this manner

Do you drink beer? I’m interested to know if you drink beer? My dad kept calendars, we had lots of fun at Christmas get togethers looking at them. I know a great drinking game called the Devil’s Triangle, it’s just drinking, honest….

PostRe: US Politics by **Jenuall** » Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:24 pm

Moggy wrote:
Jenuall wrote:Innocent people do not behave in this manner

Do you drink beer? I’m interested to know if you drink beer? My dad kept calendars, we had lots of fun at Christmas get togethers looking at them. I know a great drinking game called the Devil’s Triangle, it’s just drinking, honest….

I enjoy Devil's triangle, it's one of my favourite drinking games. I must admit that I do often end up boofing afterwards though, those drinks really do make me gassy!

PostRe: US Politics by **Tafdolphin** » Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:51 pm

twitter.com/pdmcleod/status/1048221588699660288

A good sign, but it's not enough as of yet. Flake is confirmed as a yes.

Collins also voted a tentative yes, so he's through to the final vote.

PostRe: US Politics by **Alvin Flummux** » Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:10 pm

Murkowski may have been encouraged by Manchin's defection to the Yes camp. It effectively gives her cover to vote no without sinking the nomination.

PostRe: US Politics by **Lex-Man** » Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:54 pm

So he might get in tomorrow. This is kind of incredible.

PostRe: US Politics by **Alvin Flummux** » Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:36 pm

Flake's going to vote yes tomorrow. It's over, guys.

twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/1048252456902320128

PostRe: US Politics by **Hexx** » Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:40 pm

Filth the lot of them.
And their supporters

PostRe: US Politics by **Alvin Flummux** » Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:44 pm

Collins cozying up to her male colleagues was sickening to watch. I know she's probably trying to avoid being primaried, but good strawberry floating lord, at what cost?...

twitter.com/EdwardTHardy/status/1048335773999624192

PostRe: US Politics by **Lex-Man** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:34 am

At this rate we'll get a landslide republican victory at mid-term and a second term for Trump.

PostRe: US Politics by **Alvin Flummux** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:37 am

lex-man wrote:At this rate we'll get a landslide republican victory at mid-term and a second term for Trump.

twitter.com/politico/status/1048366007310532608

US Politics

Who is online

Affiliates