Islamic State

captain red dog wrote:Is it possible to reconcile our differences though? They seem so far gone in terms of ideology that I just don't see a way they can be peacefully "defeated". I think the most you could achieve is some kind of North Korea style isolation.

North Korea's isolation is self imposed though. ISIS are the complete opposite, they're already well underway with their plan to add Libya and Afghanistan to the caliphate.

NickSCFC wrote:

Rocsteady wrote:Brilliant. If only you were Secretary of Defence.

Ok, let's just continue with your policy of doing absolutely nothing.

Where did he say we should do nothing?

There's a vast number of options between doing nothing and killing millions.

NickSCFC wrote:

Rocsteady wrote:Brilliant. If only you were Secretary of Defence.

Ok, let's just continue with your policy of doing absolutely nothing.

Good one. I haven't got a fully formed policy but it would be along the lines of funding rival, more moderate, groups (such as the Kurds) to destabilise IS alongside preventative measures to lessen the number of fighters joining IS and promote heavy sanctions against anyone found funding IS through means such as purchasing oil or goods from them.

But you're right, your 5-year-old mentality towards the situation is much better.

That's the whole problems though, other than the Kurds and Assad's loyalists there are no moderates.

NickSCFC wrote:

captain red dog wrote:Is it possible to reconcile our differences though? They seem so far gone in terms of ideology that I just don't see a way they can be peacefully "defeated". I think the most you could achieve is some kind of North Korea style isolation.

North Korea's isolation is self imposed though.

Well kind of I guess, in so far as they won't give way to any western influence. The sanctions isolate them quite heavily. I think that's the best we could hope for in terms of a peaceful settlement with ISIS, some kind of long term isolation and hoping for their inevitable economic collapse. I don't see a humane resolution to this conflict either way.

Edit: Sanctions would mean isolation and starvation, conflict would result in war casualties. I don't see many options on the table. The whole situation is a tragedy and I hope it is remembered as the lasting legacy of the Bush presidency and to a smaller extent the Blair Government.

That avoids the issue that triggered this debate, which is the ongoing genocide. Sanctions won't stop this.

Your concern for acts of genocide rings hollow, Nick, given the fact you seemingly support committing it in order to prevent it.

NickSCFC wrote:That avoids the issue that triggered this debate, which is the ongoing genocide. Sanctions won't stop this.

Well said, Nick. The problem appears to be that although the UN mechanism to take action against systematic genocide appears to be in place there is a distinct lack of will on the part of the free world to act upon it on any meaningful way. Moggy is correct to say that my ire should not be reserved for the Obama Administration's lacklustre response, as any nation which is a signatory to its convention against genocide should also be making a more of an effort.

Seriously, how is it ever morally defensible to adopt a 'measured' response to what we now know is genocide? We should all be ashamed our governments, but especially of the world's most powerful free democratic military power and its impotent Commander-in-Chief.

I don't think Obama appreciates America's place in this unipolar world, if anything the only one who's shown any leadership has been Putin.

NickSCFC wrote:

captain red dog wrote:Is it possible to reconcile our differences though? They seem so far gone in terms of ideology that I just don't see a way they can be peacefully "defeated". I think the most you could achieve is some kind of North Korea style isolation.

North Korea's isolation is self imposed though. ISIS are the complete opposite, they're already well underway with their plan to add Libya and Afghanistan to the caliphate.

What is this map? Are you suggesting ISIS are planning to capture Spain, Czech Republic, Austria, Greece etc?

That is a literal impossibility.

EDIT: hold on, is "QOQZAZ" Russia? Are you suggesting they might successfully invade Russia?

Cal wrote:

NickSCFC wrote:That avoids the issue that triggered this debate, which is the ongoing genocide. Sanctions won't stop this.

Well said, Nick. The problem appears to be that although the UN mechanism to take action against systematic genocide appears to be in place there is a distinct lack of will on the part of the free world to act upon it on any meaningful way. Moggy is correct to say that my ire should not be reserved for the Obama Administration's lacklustre response, as any nation which is a signatory to its convention against genocide should also be making a more of an effort.

Seriously, how is it ever morally defensible to adopt a 'measured' response to what we now know is genocide? We should all be ashamed our governments, but especially of the world's most powerful free democratic military power and its impotent Commander-in-Chief.

Nick's idea of stopping a genocide with a genocide isn't going to help matters.

Moggy wrote:Nick's idea of stopping a genocide with a genocide isn't going to help matters.

There is literally nothing wrong with applying "there was an old lady who swallowed a fly" to global conflicts

NickSCFC wrote:I don't think Obama appreciates America's place in this unipolar world, if anything the only one who's shown any leadership has been Putin.

And it's amazing what Russian leadership, working with Syrian forces, can achieve when there's a will to get stuff done:

Palmyra: Syria forces 'retake' Islamic State-held city

Syrian government forces have re-captured the ancient city of Palmyra from so-called Islamic State (IS), say state media and a monitoring group. An army representative told Syrian state TV that the recapture of Palmyra marks the beginning of IS' collapse. The Syrian army had been gaining ground for several days, supported by Russian air strikes. Military sources say the army now has "full control". IS seized the Unesco World Heritage site and modern town in May 2015. Images released by the Syrian military on Saturday showed helicopters and tanks firing at positions in Palmyra. The date of the footage could not be independently verified. The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, a UK-based monitoring group, said there was still gunfire in the eastern part of the city, but the bulk of the IS force had pulled out and retreated further east.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-35906568

Of course, none of this sits well with the BBC. See if you can spot the sneer:

A victory for Assad - Lina Sinjab, BBC News, in neighbouring Lebanon

This is a victory for President Bashar al-Assad, who wants to show the world that he is a partner in fighting terrorism. Backed by Russian war planes and Shia militias, government forces gained control over the ancient city and are now close to securing a vast area of the country. But residents and observers cast doubts on why Mr Assad's forces pulled out from Palmyra in the first place, allowing Islamic State (IS) militants to get in to the city. In May 2015, hundreds of IS fighters drove tens of thousands of kilometres across the desert to reach Palmyra, almost uninterrupted, while government forces were dropping barrel bombs over opposition areas full of civilians. President Assad has now secured a stronger position in the peace talks. He is certainly seen as a problem-solver, but many say is the source of the problem.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-35906568

Never mind, at least Palmyra's precious antiquities - those that have not yet been smashed to pieces by Islamic State savages - might yet still survive:

Destruction of ancient sites

When IS seized the city it destroyed archaeological sites, drawing global outrage. Two 2,000-year-old temples, an arch and funerary towers were left in ruins. The jihadist group, which has also demolished several pre-Islamic sites in neighbouring Iraq, believes that such structures are idolatrous. The prospect of the city's liberation was welcomed by Unesco, the UN's cultural agency, which has described the destruction of Palmyra as a war crime. The head of Syria's antiquities authority, Mamoun Abdelkarim, promised to repair as much of the damage as possible as a "message against terrorism".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-35906568

That hateful Assad regime, promising to rebuild what Islamic State have destroyed.

More "that hateful Assad regime" using chemical weapons against civilians. It might be the lesser of two evils since ISIS came on the scene, but there's a sense that a lot of things have been overlooked recently in this marriage of convenience between Assad and the West.

Also, I wouldn't mistake Russian "leadership" in this situation for it acting to protect its own interest. They aren't necessarily showing the way in the fact against ISIS, more that it is in their interest to prop Assad up.

That probably accounts for some sneers in journalism, as Assad had gone from public enemy number one in Syria to someone the West has had to reluctantly work with, rather hypocritically actually. If you're going to have a go at any perceive Left-leaning weakness, criticize Obama for once saying that use of chemical weapons was a red line in Syria.

I think saying the BBC are sneering over confirmed (by the UN) civilian casualties misses the mark drastically in an attempt to score points.

Thank god for Assad, Putin and the Kurdish peshmerga. They put Obama, Cameron, Merkel and Erdogan to shame. Now onto Raqqa.

People keep saying that fighting them only makes them martyrs while forgetting that their occupation of Northern Iraq/Syria has given them 'legitimacy' in the eyes of confused young Muslims.

Remember the ridiculous hype last year about how ISIS were carrying out prophecy? What a crushing blow it will be to their ideology when their 'caliphate' is in ruins, it'll be a huge demoralising blow lesson to future generation who may plan to do the very same thing.

NickSCFC wrote:Thank god for Assad, Putin and the Kurdish peshmerga. They put Obama, Cameron, Merkel and Erdogan to shame. Now onto Raqqa.

I do hope so. If they could take back Raqqa Islamic State scum will truly be on the run. Putin needs to keep the pressure on and continue to work supporting Syrian forces who must be feeling buoyed by their hard-fought victory in Palmyra. Nobody can excuse Assad's alleged crimes against civilians, but more pragmatic minds must prevail for the moment: the common enemy to all is Islamic State filth and I can only applaud the Russian/Syrian forces for doing what Nobel-prize winning Obama has unforgivably remained determined not to do: something.

NickSCFC wrote:People keep saying that fighting them only makes them martyrs while forgetting that their occupation of Northern Iraq/Syria has given them 'legitimacy' in the eyes of confused young Muslims.

To many, it seems military and political paralysis and some harsh language is a much more preferable option than determined military resistance. I can't understand or forgive the West's ineffectual posturing when it's clear that the only way to defeat Islamic State is to actually get on with the job.

NickSCFC wrote:Remember the ridiculous hype last year about how ISIS were carrying out prophecy? What a crushing blow it will be to their ideology when their 'caliphate' is in ruins, it'll be a huge demoralising blow lesson to future generation who may plan to do the very same thing.

It will certainly be a huge blow to any supposed legitimacy the Islamic State claims it has. It is a bunch of lawless criminals, murderers, kidnappers, slavers, vandals and rapists. The sooner they meet their end the better. I personally don't care if that's at the barrel of an American or Russian gun - either way, it would be a desirable result.

Look at the Iraq War. Do you honestly believe Merkel, Obama and Cameron wanted anything to do with another quagmire that could only spread IS' message and ideology further?

Come on, be real.

Obama should have done something about the Assad regime after it started using chemical weapons though, just as Israel should have been made to suffer from sanctions after it was caught using white phosphorus.

nvm.

Did Nick just say thank god for Assad?

65 dead in Lahore suicide attack

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-35908512