Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?

Fed up talking videogames? Why?

Is property theft or is tax theft?

Property is theft
10
22%
Tax is theft
5
11%
Neither
15
33%
Both
0
No votes
Don't know
0
No votes
What the hell are you playing at
15
33%
 
Total votes: 45
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Regginator3
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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by Regginator3 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:48 pm

Evil Ted wrote:
Regginator3 wrote:
Evil Ted wrote:
Regginator3 wrote:Why should the state control land? What gives the state ownership of that land, and the right to decide who can live on it?

The same thing that gives anyone the right to anything.

Well, it's the state that gives things the right to anything. So it's the state that gives itself control. Brilliant.


Yeah. That's what everyone's been trying to tell you.

Right. So the state has stolen the land without anyone's consent.

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Karl
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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by Karl » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:48 pm

Regginator3 wrote:
Karl wrote:No, because in my view you agree to it by interacting with society. It's part of the implicit terms and conditions of access to society. If you have any interactions with society at all, in any way, big or small, you have to fulfil the membership criteria: this is your end of the social contract.

Is this just your personal view or an actual contract that has been explicitly accepted by everyone? If the former, why should it have any legitimacy?

It's how society is structured, which is implicitly consented to by the people, via democratic expression. If society as a whole didn't want things to work this way, they would put forward and vote for an ancap party.

No, clearly no-one has 'explicitly' accepted this as a contract. But there are plenty of situations in which existing in a place or performing some action implicitly states your agreement to some form of contract, even if the contract is only 'I will pay you after this meal'.

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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by Karl » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:49 pm

Regginator3 wrote:Right. So the state has stolen the land without anyone's consent.

I consent to the idea that the UK should have a government in charge, and presumably so does everyone who voted for a mainstream political party in the last general election. The ancap movement would be a lot bigger than it currently is if people didn't consent to the concept of being governed!

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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by Earfolds » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:50 pm

Regginator3 wrote:Right. So the state has stolen the land without anyone's consent.

Take the state to court over it.

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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by Regginator3 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:51 pm

Karl wrote:It's how society is structured, which is implicitly consented to by the people, via democratic expression. If society as a whole didn't want things to work this way, they would put forward and vote for an ancap party.

No they wouldn't, because it would be considered a terrorist/extremist organisation whose intention is to "topple the state" (which is what it would do) and would be cracked down upon by the police we pay our taxes with under extremism laws.

Also even if it wasn't cracked down upon, nobody would have heard of it because it wouldn't be able to publish material due to rich donors of the big parties taking all of the advertising space.

No, clearly no-one has 'explicitly' accepted this as a contract. But there are plenty of situations in which existing in a place or performing some action implicitly states your agreement to some form of contract, even if the contract is only 'I will pay you after this meal'.

The point here being... consent?

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Karl
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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by Karl » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:54 pm

Regginator3 wrote:
Karl wrote:No, clearly no-one has 'explicitly' accepted this as a contract. But there are plenty of situations in which existing in a place or performing some action implicitly states your agreement to some form of contract, even if the contract is only 'I will pay you after this meal'.

The point here being... consent?

Which you have implicitly given by walking into a restaurant that expects you to pay for exchange for food. And you have implicitly given consent to be taxed by interacting with a society that expects you to pay tax in exchange for existing inside of it.

Regginator3 wrote:
Karl wrote:It's how society is structured, which is implicitly consented to by the people, via democratic expression. If society as a whole didn't want things to work this way, they would put forward and vote for an ancap party.

No they wouldn't, because it would be considered a terrorist/extremist organisation whose intention is to "topple the state" (which is what it would do) and would be cracked down upon by the police we pay our taxes with under extremism laws.

Also even if it wasn't cracked down upon, nobody would have heard of it because it wouldn't be able to publish material due to rich donors of the big parties taking all of the advertising space.

:lol: Right, OK. I don't think it's my job as a rando internet nerd to convince you that democracy, given some time and effort, will eventually cause the government to reflect the wishes of society. If you are anti-democracy then fair enough, I won't fight you on it.

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Skarjo
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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by Skarjo » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:55 pm

Regginator3 wrote:
Skarjo wrote:You're right, you've made your fortune.

I want it.

I've got a gun, a knife, and a copy of 'Why Bitcoins aren't Libertarian Dutch Tulips'.

What stops me from taking it?

Is this assuming you're not a greedy psychopath, or assuming you are? Two very different possible outcomes, here.

If you're not, nothing, because you wouldn't do it. If you are, well - you can do that now anyway! Sure, with a state, there's a definitive consequence, but the actual act of taking it would (and still does) happen under a society with a state. And although I say there's a consequence, if you're not caught, which if you really were a criminal planning to do this you'd make damn sure you wouldn't be, there'd be no consequence anyway.

IF there was no state protecting us, couldn't a consequence be me going after you for revenge with my gun and knife?

(Note: I am not saying I advocate this system :lol: )


That's a long and very boring way of avoiding the question if it's theft.

Is it theft or not?

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Regginator3
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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by Regginator3 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:56 pm

Skarjo wrote:That's a long and very boring way of avoiding the question if it's theft.

Is it theft or not?

I didn't avoid the question of if it's theft. Of course it's theft, whether there's a state present or not.

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Skarjo
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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by Skarjo » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:58 pm

Regginator3 wrote:
Skarjo wrote:That's a long and very boring way of avoiding the question if it's theft.

Is it theft or not?

I didn't avoid the question of if it's theft. Of course it's theft, whether there's a state present or not.


So you think you operate and earn in a system without contributing to the system, right?

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Regginator3
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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by Regginator3 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:00 pm

Skarjo wrote:
Regginator3 wrote:
Skarjo wrote:That's a long and very boring way of avoiding the question if it's theft.

Is it theft or not?

I didn't avoid the question of if it's theft. Of course it's theft, whether there's a state present or not.


So you think you operate and earn in a system without contributing to the system, right?

What? No? Of course I earn in a system that I contribute to.

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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by Earfolds » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:00 pm

Regginator3 wrote:
Skarjo wrote:That's a long and very boring way of avoiding the question if it's theft.

Is it theft or not?

I didn't avoid the question of if it's theft. Of course it's theft, whether there's a state present or not.

It's not theft. Skarjo has it, so it's Skarjo's now.

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Regginator3
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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by Regginator3 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:01 pm

Evil Ted wrote:
Regginator3 wrote:
Skarjo wrote:That's a long and very boring way of avoiding the question if it's theft.

Is it theft or not?

I didn't avoid the question of if it's theft. Of course it's theft, whether there's a state present or not.

It's not theft. Skarjo has it, so it's Skarjo's now.

Why wouldn't it be theft? It was taken from me without my consent.

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Earfolds
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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by Earfolds » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:02 pm

Regginator3 wrote:
Evil Ted wrote:
Regginator3 wrote:
Skarjo wrote:That's a long and very boring way of avoiding the question if it's theft.

Is it theft or not?

I didn't avoid the question of if it's theft. Of course it's theft, whether there's a state present or not.

It's not theft. Skarjo has it, so it's Skarjo's now.

Why wouldn't it be theft? It was taken from me without my consent.

Skarjo won it from you with his bravery and power. It's his.

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Regginator3
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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by Regginator3 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:02 pm

Evil Ted wrote:Skarjo won it from you with his bravery and power. It's his.

Doesn't change the fact that it is theft.

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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by OrangeRKN » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:03 pm

Skarjo wrote:Welcome to four pages ago.

Doesn't matter whether they like it; you being happy isn't important.

You exist and earned your money in a system that requires your taxes so you can keep earning money rather than be beheaded in the street by an invader.

So pay it.


The sliding from third person into second person is unfair, it seems to imply that I am not happy paying taxes and don't want to pay them, which is wrong.

I'm finding this whole thread needlessly combative and frustrating so I'm going to bow out.

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Skarjo
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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by Skarjo » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:03 pm

I like this guy.

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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by Earfolds » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:03 pm

Regginator3 wrote:
Evil Ted wrote:Skarjo won it from you with his bravery and power. It's his.

Doesn't change the fact that it is theft.

What makes it theft? You don't have it any more so it's not yours.

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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by Regginator3 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:05 pm

Evil Ted wrote:What makes it theft? You don't have it any more so it's not yours.

That's literally what theft is, taking something from someone, without their consent. He took it from me, so it was theft.

This really isn't a difficult concept.

Just because there isn't some super-organisation to define it as theft doesn't change the fact that it is, by common usage of the word, obviously an act of thievery to take something from someone without their consent.

I'm finding this whole thread needlessly combative and frustrating so I'm going to bow out.

Me too. Skarjo + Ted + whoever, you guys can count this as a "win" if you want, but I'm finding this frustrating as well. Enjoy your victory.

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Skarjo
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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by Skarjo » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:05 pm

OrangeRakoon wrote:
Skarjo wrote:Welcome to four pages ago.

Doesn't matter whether they like it; you being happy isn't important.

You exist and earned your money in a system that requires your taxes so you can keep earning money rather than be beheaded in the street by an invader.

So pay it.


The sliding from third person into second person is unfair, it seems to imply that I am not happy paying taxes and don't want to pay them, which is wrong.

I'm finding this whole thread needlessly combative and frustrating so I'm going to bow out.

Yea, that's whats unfair.

A small change in perspective.

From = "of course I'd be fine"
to

"Oh gooseberry fool what if I might not be fine"

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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by Karl » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:10 pm

The important thing is that 'property is theft' beat 'tax is theft' in the poll


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