Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?

Fed up talking videogames? Why?

Is property theft or is tax theft?

Property is theft
10
22%
Tax is theft
5
11%
Neither
15
33%
Both
0
No votes
Don't know
0
No votes
What the hell are you playing at
15
33%
 
Total votes: 45
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OrangeRKN
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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by OrangeRKN » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:59 pm

Karl wrote:
OrangeRakoon wrote:I'm not sure why people are objecting so strongly to the idea that taxation is non-consensual.

I think it's because most people of a left-leaning mindset do consent to having taxes taken, and furthermore do genuinely feel that others consent implicitly by engaging in a tax-funded society in any way.


Taxation is enforced, through the use or threat of violence, regardless of the level of engagement an individual has with the tax-funded society. I could live in a hut in the woods trading bitcoin over satellite, and the state would force taxation upon me despite my /only/ interaction with the state being my existing in the geographical area that it claims. The only argument I can see here is that I would still be benefiting from the defence of the land and that implies consent. I don't buy into that because that implied consent appears incredibly weak to me.

That's clearly an extreme example, but essentially I feel like "implied consent" is a pretty weak argument to begin with that everyone agrees to paying tax. Clearly not everyone does agree to paying tax, otherwise people wouldn't get arrested for tax evasion, and the state wouldn't have to use or threaten violence to enforce taxation.

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Skarjo
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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by Skarjo » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:05 pm

The UK is enforced with the use or threat of violence.

What's your point?

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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by Earfolds » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:07 pm

I wanted a cup of coffee, but didn't consent to Costa thieving my money off me for it. In the end, I had no choice in the matter.

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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by OrangeRKN » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:14 pm

Lets come at it a different way.

Some people don't want to pay tax, right? They don't like paying tax.

They get arrested or otherwise compelled to pay regardless.

What you're trying to argue with "implied consent" is that actually they do want to pay tax! They do like paying tax! Didn't they realise that the simple act of living in the UK implies their full unwavering happiness, assent and, dare I say it, consent to taxation?

It doesn't make sense. Taxation is not consensual, because people are forced to pay tax even if they don't want to. All the talk about implied consent is trying to argue that everyone does want to pay tax. This is evidently and patently false.

I, personally, am happy to pay my taxes. But taxation is not consensual.

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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by Earfolds » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:17 pm

OrangeRakoon wrote:But taxation is not consensual.

That implies there's nothing society can do to influence the level of tax they have to pay. You consent to the level of tax by voting in an election.

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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by That » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:22 pm

OrangeRakoon wrote:Some people don't want to pay tax, right? They don't like paying tax.

When someone enters into a contract they don't always want to fulfil that contract. (Some people are dicks!) But we still try to make them fulfil it.

Sometimes people consent, implicitly or otherwise, to abiding by rules and then decide to break those rules and have to face a punishment for it. It doesn't make their consent retroactively less valid.

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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by Skarjo » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:23 pm

OrangeRakoon wrote:Lets come at it a different way.

Some people don't want to pay tax, right? They don't like paying tax.

They get arrested or otherwise compelled to pay regardless.

What you're trying to argue with "implied consent" is that actually they do want to pay tax! They do like paying tax! Didn't they realise that the simple act of living in the UK implies their full unwavering happiness, assent and, dare I say it, consent to taxation?

It doesn't make sense. Taxation is not consensual, because people are forced to pay tax even if they don't want to. All the talk about implied consent is trying to argue that everyone does want to pay tax. This is evidently and patently false.

I, personally, am happy to pay my taxes. But taxation is not consensual.


Welcome to four pages ago.

Doesn't matter whether they like it; you being happy isn't important.

You exist and earned your money in a system that requires your taxes so you can keep earning money rather than be beheaded in the street by an invader.

So pay it.

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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by <]:^D » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:24 pm

yes, exactly. the reason we prosecute tax-evaders and theyre quite disliked is that they knowingly consent to benefit from everything taxation brings to a country but then want to avoid the part where they fulfill their side of the contract. if they truly didnt want to consent theyd leave the country, or decide to earn below the tax threshold

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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by Regginator3 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:31 pm

Karl wrote:When someone enters into a contract they don't always want to fulfil that contract. (Some people are dicks!) But we still try to make them fulfil it.

What contract? The law that I have to pay tax if I want to earn in this country, that I never agreed to?

Do you see the problem now.

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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by Regginator3 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:32 pm

Skarjo wrote:Welcome to four pages ago.

Doesn't matter whether they like it; you being happy isn't important.

You exist and earned your money in a system that requires your taxes so you can keep earning money rather than be beheaded in the street by an invader.

So pay it.

What if I earned my money outside of that system? What if I never interacted with any public services/projects and earned money that way?

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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by Skarjo » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:34 pm

Regginator3 wrote:
Skarjo wrote:Welcome to four pages ago.

Doesn't matter whether they like it; you being happy isn't important.

You exist and earned your money in a system that requires your taxes so you can keep earning money rather than be beheaded in the street by an invader.

So pay it.

What if I earned my money outside of that system? What if I never interacted with any public services/projects and earned money that way?


Great!

Where'd you do that?

(Is it somewhere obviously still under the control of a major global power?)

Karl wrote:Can't believe I got baited into expressing a political stance on hentai

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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by Regginator3 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:36 pm

Skarjo wrote:
Regginator3 wrote:
Skarjo wrote:Welcome to four pages ago.

Doesn't matter whether they like it; you being happy isn't important.

You exist and earned your money in a system that requires your taxes so you can keep earning money rather than be beheaded in the street by an invader.

So pay it.

What if I earned my money outside of that system? What if I never interacted with any public services/projects and earned money that way?


Great!

Where'd you do that?

(Is it somewhere obviously still under the control of a major global power?)

Inside the UK.

You still haven't explained what gives the state the right to demand any earnings - no matter the currency - in the UK be taxed just because it "defends" us. All you and others have said is "it has that right because it does".

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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by Earfolds » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:37 pm

Regginator3 wrote:
Karl wrote:When someone enters into a contract they don't always want to fulfil that contract. (Some people are dicks!) But we still try to make them fulfil it.

What contract? The law that I have to pay tax if I want to earn in this country, that I never agreed to?

Do you see the problem now.

You have the option of renouncing your British citizenship, though.

Once you do that, you'll then have to seek our consent to live on our land, under our government. We might make that contingent on you paying taxes. But at least then it'll be obvious how you consented.

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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by That » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:38 pm

Regginator3 wrote:What contract? The law that I have to pay tax if I want to earn in this country, that I never agreed to?

Do you see the problem now.

No, because in my view you agree to it by interacting with society. It's part of the implicit terms and conditions of access to society. If you have any interactions with society at all, in any way, big or small, you have to fulfil the membership criteria: this is your end of the social contract.

You do have the option to never interact with society. You've made the point a few times that it isn't practical -- sure, that's because being a member of a society is so practical compared to the alternative that we have been doing it since the dawn of man. But if you wanted to go and live by yourself in the middle of a remote forest and subsist off mushrooms then you could do that, and you would never get taxed (even if the law considered you technically liable, no-one would have any idea where you are, and you would probably be presumed dead after a while!).

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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by Regginator3 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:38 pm

Evil Ted wrote:You have the option of renouncing your British citizenship, though.

Once you do that, you'll then have to seek our consent to live on our land, under our government. We might make that contingent on you paying taxes. But at least then it'll be obvious how you consented.

You're talking about the fact of how things currently work not about whether or not the system is moral or not though. If you're not interested in the discussion about morals, why are you entering one?

Why should the state control land? What gives the state ownership of that land, and the right to decide who can live on it?

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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by Earfolds » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:39 pm

Regginator3 wrote:Why should the state control land? What gives the state ownership of that land, and the right to decide who can live on it?

The same thing that gives anyone the right to anything.

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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by Skarjo » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:40 pm

Regginator3 wrote:
Skarjo wrote:
Regginator3 wrote:
Skarjo wrote:Welcome to four pages ago.

Doesn't matter whether they like it; you being happy isn't important.

You exist and earned your money in a system that requires your taxes so you can keep earning money rather than be beheaded in the street by an invader.

So pay it.

What if I earned my money outside of that system? What if I never interacted with any public services/projects and earned money that way?


Great!

Where'd you do that?

(Is it somewhere obviously still under the control of a major global power?)

Inside the UK.

You still haven't explained what gives the state the right to demand any earnings - no matter the currency - in the UK be taxed just because it "defends" us. All you and others have said is "it has that right because it does".


You're right, you've made your fortune.

I want it.

I've got a gun, a knife, and a copy of 'Why Bitcoins aren't Libertarian Dutch Tulips'.

What stops me from taking it?

Karl wrote:Can't believe I got baited into expressing a political stance on hentai

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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by Regginator3 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:43 pm

Evil Ted wrote:
Regginator3 wrote:Why should the state control land? What gives the state ownership of that land, and the right to decide who can live on it?

The same thing that gives anyone the right to anything.

Well, it's the state that gives things the right to anything. So it's the state that gives itself control. Brilliant.

Karl wrote:No, because in my view you agree to it by interacting with society. It's part of the implicit terms and conditions of access to society. If you have any interactions with society at all, in any way, big or small, you have to fulfil the membership criteria: this is your end of the social contract.

Is this just your personal view or an actual contract that has been explicitly accepted by everyone? If the former, why should it have any legitimacy?

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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by Earfolds » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:43 pm

Regginator3 wrote:
Evil Ted wrote:
Regginator3 wrote:Why should the state control land? What gives the state ownership of that land, and the right to decide who can live on it?

The same thing that gives anyone the right to anything.

Well, it's the state that gives things the right to anything. So it's the state that gives itself control. Brilliant.


Yeah. That's what everyone's been trying to tell you.

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PostRe: Wesley Snipes Presents: Is tax theft or is all property theft?
by Regginator3 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:47 pm

Skarjo wrote:You're right, you've made your fortune.

I want it.

I've got a gun, a knife, and a copy of 'Why Bitcoins aren't Libertarian Dutch Tulips'.

What stops me from taking it?

Is this assuming you're not a greedy psychopath, or assuming you are? Two very different possible outcomes, here.

If you're not, nothing, because you wouldn't do it. If you are, well - you can do that now anyway! Sure, with a state, there's a definitive consequence, but the actual act of taking it would (and still does) happen under a society with a state. And although I say there's a consequence, if you're not caught, which if you really were a criminal planning to do this you'd make damn sure you wouldn't be, there'd be no consequence anyway.

IF there was no state protecting us, couldn't a consequence be me going after you for revenge with my gun and knife?

(Note: I am not saying I advocate this system :lol: )


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