Where Mario Kart Went Wrong

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Hyperion
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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by Hyperion » Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:27 pm

The Watching Artist wrote:Deluxe


True dat

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Lime
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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by Lime » Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:53 pm

I'm sure that some people love it, but I'm not a fan of the huge kart-customisation options introduced a few games back, with multiple wheels, wings etc. I don't have the time or desire to drive a dozen or so laps, testing out each combination to come up with some spreadsheet-optimal kart, which presumably could vary per course.

Back in the day it was small, medium and large characters with a logical performance effect. Makes sense, you could easily pick based on your preferred driving style.

For me, choosing the 'mini gold wheels' over the 'rollerskates' or whatever is on offer adds nothing but a sense of frustration - has the person I'm racing googled some combination of components that gives an edge, regardless of our respective skill?

I have very fond memories of MK64, because a) I spent a lot of time on time trials, trying to do the legendary wall-hop on Mario Circuit, and b) because I think it had the best weapon balancing in the series - I used to play it with my partner and it would be pretty much neck and neck on the line every race. But the online ease of MK8 means I would rarely go back to the older entries in the series now that my current partner isn't really into playing it.

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Hyperion
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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by Hyperion » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:00 pm

Bike splits :x

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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by Lotus » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:21 pm

I'm not a fan of all the customisation options. Different vehicles types would be good, a la DKR, but not endless wheels, body types, wings, etc. Just looks shitty and I'm not sure what it really adds.

I think improving/evolving Mario Kart comes down to fewer iterations, new vehicle types (not just bikes), the new courses that could come with that change, a better single-player (not just GPs) and getting rid of the cheating AI and rubber-banding.

Diddy Kong Racing really did make a huge leap all those years ago for kart racers, and Mario Kart just feels like it's going through the motions a bit to me. Super Circuit was the last one I really enjoyed, and while I had the Wii version, it always just feels like you're playing the same game. When you've played one Mario Kart you've played them all really.

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Suffocate Peon
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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by Suffocate Peon » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:24 pm

Met wrote:i don't really know what to say other than that I disagree with almost everything you said, but I'll try anyway.

Suffocate Peon wrote:MK64 is probably the better multiplayer game. But DKR is the better singleplayer, and still is. Replaying it recently it wasn't just a nostalgia rush, it's genuinely good. The silver coin challenge idea isn't new or bold, but it just reminded me how simply satisfying a kart racing game can be, needing to take these difficult lines and routes whilst still maintaining a good lead. DKR came out of nowhere at the time, it was the sheer adventure of the game, the ease at which it innovated, Rare were peerless at the time for all the ideas they'd include in their games, that as a teenager was so exciting. Around that time Beetle Adventure Racing came out as well, as well as Snowboard Kids. Now, to others these might be rough games, but i don't care about polish personally. Their enthusiasm mattered more, and in a way, like Rockstar's PS2 games, the roughness added to their charm.

The obvious point about the space levels was the surprise, even though they're brilliant anyway with some great music. It wouldn't be nearly as cool just unlocking a new cup, you had to enter the hub and be in awe of the potential. And space isn't all that out there, but none of its zones hinted at entering that type of theme.


Mario Kart has literally always had a space course. It's had volcano courses. It's had jungle courses. It's had ice courses. It's had mountain courses. It's had underwater courses. It's had sky courses. It's had city courses. It's had castle courses. It's had toybox courses. It's had mechanical courses. It's had courses in the future. It's had courses in the past. It's had haunted house courses. It's had beach courses. It's had a course on a boat. It's had desert and dessert courses.


'The obvious point about the space courses was the surprise'. Rare tapped into the sense of adventure.

Met wrote:I couldn't care less about how you drive from one course to another. Drive through a giant painting? Get dropped by Lakitu? That's not why I'm here. I'm not here to drive around inside Peach's castle, I'm here to throw shells at my friends
.

Well, yeah, you're satisfied, I'm not. It's going to be impossible for me to get anywhere if you are easily pleased. There's a phrase I like, used for Radiohead; they give you what you didn't realise you knew you wanted.

Suffocate Peon wrote:I think, really, how can racing games in the late 90s inspire more than the ones 20 years later?

I hate all forms of tacky glitz, and want continuity with the original Super Mario Bros. This is a stylistic taste thing maybe others disagree with. I wouldn't want blocks on the ground like Super Mario Kart but they've obviously tried different things before settling on the ? diamond boxes of MK64, wanting them to be sparkling and stand out, even if it looks tacky.

I want a visual purity to the series, i think it's fine Mario Party carries the gloss, i think Mario Kart ought to dial back on the excess. I think most people focus on just the unfairness in the games, like Kalimari Desert I read is awful because the train offers too much randomness, but i love the visual minimalism of the level and always thought the train was simple and brilliant. I like M64's tracks for their length, and the sparse backgrounds, there's a peacefulness to being way out in front of the rest. Tbh, your opinions on MK64 in the past far exceed my whole post in terms of an alternative take, though they are very interesting.


Met wrote:Yeah, I also liked driving through barren, single-coloured expanses with nothing happening.


But..purity. The purity of being clear; this level will do this, unlike any other. It's an iconic level, none of the new ones are. If they remade Kalimari Desert it wouldn't be as vivid and evocative. I want visually iconic levels, yeah. I'll take visually iconic levels over ones that bombard you with stuff, and don't streamline any of it. The remake of Toad's Turnpike is a mess.

Suffocate Peon wrote:It's not yearning for the past, it's identifying the giant leaps made THEN and the feeling it gave THEN, and wanting new games in a genre to make similiar leaps, aware of the 20 years of pop culture everyone has consumed in the mean time. So, merely carrying on where DKR left the genre wouldn't be enough. Beetle Adventure Racing had you leap through the air into a volcano and dodge T Rexs, both exciting then as a teenager when a few years before I was racing around a dirt course driving a Sabaru. I want a kart racing game to be strawberry floating mental, I want an embrace of full on glitching, I want to race through the falling vomit of an alien, I want to be at the mercy of an malevolent robot, I want tracks that morph and transform, a lap to lap major restructuring, a track that's graphically unfinished why not, a Daffy Duck style being drawn as you race 4th wall breaking perception altering.


Met wrote:Pretty much everything you described is in the games already. Grumble Volcano is, funnily enough, inside a volcano, that collapses as you race with falling fireballs. I'm not sure what you mean by "at the mercy of an malevolent robot" but there are Thwomps, giant statues that attack you, and all manner of stage hazards in various courses. The only thing you have a point on is the one being graphically designed as you race, which could be a decent Mario Paint track. But at this point I ask, what happened to "i think Mario Kart ought to dial back on the excess" and "I hate all forms of tacky glitz"?


But you're skipping the context and setup of everything, playing a cup where it goes; next track here's Grumble Volcano and here's a quick fly through and now off you go with everything as you expect is quite clearly different to a track that starts off at the coast, travels through a town, goes across rivers, bridges, past waterfalls, then you fly off a jump after say taking a different route and appear to be to aiming to land somewhere you could never have expected. To which your reply might be; I don't care how I land in my volcanoes, and anywhere I only play multiplayer.

Glitz is the Mario Party styled sparkling boost strips and item boxes, and the lit up barriers beside the track and the overall sheen the games continue to go for. At the mercy of a malevolent robot is thinking bigger than a thromp that falls down. You're being kind of dense to the point of taking the piss or are extremely limited in your thinking. A Mario Paint track would be exactly the kind of boring approach Nintendo would probably do. I'm talking about messing with the player's perception, I specifically mention the evolution of use of a giant Bowser in the opening post.


Met wrote:
Suffocate Peon wrote:But it is Nintendo I know. Could at least have done a Pikmin level. All those creatures.


There's literally 2 F-Zero tracks, an Animal Crossing track and a Hyrule Castle track. Even that's more than they needed since it's, y'know, Mario Kart and not Nintendo Kart, but semantics.

Suffocate Peon wrote:Item boxes: They don't really need to stand out if they pop up in your path every 10 seconds of a race, it's just a preference really, meant to express how simple and dry and minimal the graphics could be. I want more of the playfulness I think of something like Yoshi's Island, graphically more in tune with that and the original Super Mario Bros. Yoshi's Island uses monsters and creatures in a way few games do. Mario Kart picks a theme for a level then constructs it, it's not an organic approach really, they define too much of what you expect before you even begin to race. Just realised there's a subway level in the recent ones, urgh. So yeah..less literal, more expressionistic and playful. It's really the opposite of realism I want. So Nintendo might do a 'Monster Land' and it might be as sterile as walking around a toy shop or something, i want more elegance and interactivity rather than just excessive graphical detail littering the track.


Toads have subways, I guess. Mushroom Kingdom commuters need to get to work somehow. It's a fun track so who cares? For individual item boxes per level, sure, why not? But at the same time what does it add? I thought you hated all forms of tacky glitz? The current item boxes are eye catching and you can tell at a glance if the line you're taking will net you something or not.

Suffocate Peon wrote:I mean, Neo Bowser City looks cool in the fly over, but it's all prettiness kept at a distance, and doesn't tie into Bowser at all. I think Toad's Turnpike in M64 makes little sense as well, but it's at least an idea not seen before, and distinct with it. One of the first tracks I tried and was pretty amazed by it. Mario is supposed to be part of a created world, and Mario Kart should add to it. The update of Toad's Turnpike in Double Dash did away with the dodging trucks on the motorway aspect except for a tiny bit of the track which seemed so confused. They re use far too many of the same tricks, jumps landing on mushrooms, the track splitting off, the odd underwater splash, rotating hazards. MK64 at the least was more pure with it, Yoshi Valley fitted the character and was pretty mysterious, not knowing who was in first place. If you're going to do a track with multiple routes where you have to figure out the quickest way , yeah why not commit to it entirely? They could expand on these ideas. So Nintendo apply the general form to every track, regardless of how inventive it appears. They're not being specific, thinking; this track will go heavily in this direction. So by 'purity' i include this.


Met wrote:Bowser has had almost as many kingdom designs as he has games that feature good looks at them. Why wouldn't toads have a city? You think the Mushroom Kingdom is just the castle and the gardens around it? Rogueport is a pretty big port town, for example. Mario has been in hundreds of games, there's probably justification for literally anything. as for gimmicks, there's a healthy mix of gimmick tracks where you have to dodge wigglers and drive through leaf piles for a hidden mushroom to raw racing.

tl;dr: yeah, I suppose better single player content would be nice, but I barely even play the grand prix modes as is because Mario Kart is a party game and I'm probably not going to boot it up unless I have 3 other people. Otherwise, everything you want is already in the game or just flat out foreign to me, I guess.


I just didn't think I needed to flesh out so much the concept of excitement on a videogame forum, but it shows how easily pleased people have become. Just fed content, that's it. People have zero appreciation of a created cohesive vibe, mood, iconography, simplicity, purity, how you can frame tracks, how you can create a sense of adventure, the element of surprise. I cannot grasp the dismissal of wanting difference, videogames are defined for me by their possibilities, the urgency to play is dependant on the anticipation of more, like an addictive TV show or book it's crucial the setup captures you, it's crucial how it unfolds, crucial the level of fresh inventiveness spurs you on to play further, wrapped up in its unpredictable spell of awesomeness.

Nothing has changed with forums. I make the mistake of forgetting that, oh right yeah people are heavily invested in games, it'd be like wandering on to a Tory forum and saying; you could do things differently you know, if they like the way things are you'll never get anywhere.

The reply to this might be; 'what are you talking about? Just because I disagree with you means I do not understand your points?'

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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by Jezo » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:16 pm

Hyperion wrote:
The Watching Artist wrote:Deluxe


True dat

But Deluxe is way way better than vanilla 8. If anything, you'd say Mario Kart went wrong at 8, surely?

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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by Hyperion » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:20 pm

Jezo wrote:
Hyperion wrote:
The Watching Artist wrote:Deluxe


True dat

But Deluxe is way way better than vanilla 8. If anything, you'd say Mario Kart went wrong at 8, surely?


Lol no

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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by Jezo » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:22 pm

Hyperion wrote:
Jezo wrote:
Hyperion wrote:
The Watching Artist wrote:Deluxe


True dat

But Deluxe is way way better than vanilla 8. If anything, you'd say Mario Kart went wrong at 8, surely?


Lol no

You think vanilla 8 is better than Deluxe?

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Hyperion
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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by Hyperion » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:24 pm

Jezo wrote:
Hyperion wrote:
Jezo wrote:
Hyperion wrote:
The Watching Artist wrote:Deluxe


True dat

But Deluxe is way way better than vanilla 8. If anything, you'd say Mario Kart went wrong at 8, surely?


Lol no

You think vanilla 8 is better than Deluxe?


I think 8 is better than 8 Deluxe, yes

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Jezo
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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by Jezo » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:30 pm

Hyperion wrote:
Jezo wrote:
Hyperion wrote:
Jezo wrote:
Hyperion wrote:
The Watching Artist wrote:Deluxe


True dat

But Deluxe is way way better than vanilla 8. If anything, you'd say Mario Kart went wrong at 8, surely?


Lol no

You think vanilla 8 is better than Deluxe?


I think 8 is better than 8 Deluxe, yes

why

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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by OrangeRakoon » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:34 pm

Faster racing, tracks that change dramatically on each lap, a challenging and robust singleplayer mode, multiple innovative game modes, character specific abilities, boats and planes to go along with karts...

...yeah, you should play Sonic & All-Stars Racing: Transformed.

Mario Kart is arguably Nintendo's most popular and most important franchise. It's also easily the market leader in the genre. That's not where you should expect experimentation and innovation to come from.

Mario Kart has a clear place as the accessible, fun-for-all party game that it is. I share the complaint that in general Mario Kart is too pedestrian (while 200cc meant to change this, the game wasn't balanced around it), but it has to stay pedestrian to keep that wide appeal it rightly aims for. You might want faster racing and narrower tracks, but you need to consider the number of people who play Mario Kart and would say, if anything, that its too hard.

Mario Kart 8 (Deluxe) is my favourite Mario Kart and fantastic fun, and while it's not my idea of a perfect kart racer (I too love Diddy Kong Racing and wish for a return and expansion on those ideas), I'm perfectly happy with Mario Kart staying as what it is.

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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by Karl » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:44 pm

I'm not sure I really 'get' Peon's thoughts on MK's art style.

But I do agree that Diddy Kong Racing had a fantastic single-player and was a great game. I would be cool to have a spiritual sequel to it, to give us a modern experience like that.

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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by Pedz » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:51 pm

Jezo wrote:
Hyperion wrote:
Jezo wrote:
Hyperion wrote:
Jezo wrote:
Hyperion wrote:
The Watching Artist wrote:Deluxe


True dat

But Deluxe is way way better than vanilla 8. If anything, you'd say Mario Kart went wrong at 8, surely?


Lol no

You think vanilla 8 is better than Deluxe?


I think 8 is better than 8 Deluxe, yes

why


For me, the double items make it worse, it's just a complete clusterfuck.

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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by Jezo » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:01 pm

Pedz wrote:
Jezo wrote:
Hyperion wrote:
Jezo wrote:
Hyperion wrote:
Jezo wrote:
Hyperion wrote:
The Watching Artist wrote:Deluxe


True dat

But Deluxe is way way better than vanilla 8. If anything, you'd say Mario Kart went wrong at 8, surely?


Lol no

You think vanilla 8 is better than Deluxe?


I think 8 is better than 8 Deluxe, yes

why

For me, the double items make it worse, it's just a complete clusterfuck.

It's not much different from normal Mario Kart, holding an item out behind you and getting a 2nd item. Unless you think the item system has always been a clusterfuck in Mario Kart. If that's the case then fair enough lol.

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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by Pedz » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:08 pm

Jezo wrote:
Pedz wrote:
Jezo wrote:
Hyperion wrote:
Jezo wrote:
Hyperion wrote:
Jezo wrote:
Hyperion wrote:
The Watching Artist wrote:Deluxe


True dat

But Deluxe is way way better than vanilla 8. If anything, you'd say Mario Kart went wrong at 8, surely?


Lol no

You think vanilla 8 is better than Deluxe?


I think 8 is better than 8 Deluxe, yes

why

For me, the double items make it worse, it's just a complete clusterfuck.

It's not much different from normal Mario Kart, holding an item out behind you and getting a 2nd item. Unless you think the item system has always been a clusterfuck in Mario Kart. If that's the case then fair enough lol.


I find it more of a cluster strawberry float with the lightning and bullet bills. And when in first getting two coins. Great help. Deluxe just isn't as fun as 8. People on discord can probably tell that I'm enjoying less by how angry the game makes me.

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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by OrangeRakoon » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:15 pm

Counter point: Twice the chance of /not/ just getting a coin when in first place.

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Jezo
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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by Jezo » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:15 pm

Pedz wrote:
Jezo wrote:
Pedz wrote:
Jezo wrote:
Hyperion wrote:
Jezo wrote:
Hyperion wrote:
Jezo wrote:
Hyperion wrote:
The Watching Artist wrote:Deluxe


True dat

But Deluxe is way way better than vanilla 8. If anything, you'd say Mario Kart went wrong at 8, surely?


Lol no

You think vanilla 8 is better than Deluxe?


I think 8 is better than 8 Deluxe, yes

why

For me, the double items make it worse, it's just a complete clusterfuck.

It's not much different from normal Mario Kart, holding an item out behind you and getting a 2nd item. Unless you think the item system has always been a clusterfuck in Mario Kart. If that's the case then fair enough lol.


I find it more of a cluster strawberry float with the lightning and bullet bills. And when in first getting two coins. Great help. Deluxe just isn't as fun as 8. People on discord can probably tell that I'm enjoying less by how angry the game makes me.

2 coins can actually be pretty helpful tho. At the end of the day tho, all the items are just random. A lot of times there will just be nothing you can do about it. I've had games where I've been in 1st, hit by a blue shell, and 2 red shells all in a row, and remained 1st and win the race, and other times I'll get hit by the same things and drop to 3rd or whatever. What's anger-inducing is the sheer lack of control over the game due to the lucky elements.

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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by Kapp » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:21 pm

Who knew a party game would be wacky lmao. Mk8 is definitely the hardest game in the series bar super. DD and DS seem slow until you realise that they're snakers games which funnily enough make them more pve than pvp and they're the games you seem to blame on the shift towards pvp. Git Gud before you post bad walls of text please.

Dkr had a DS sequel and it was bad lol.

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The Watching Artist
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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by The Watching Artist » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:21 pm

Pedz wrote:
Jezo wrote:
Hyperion wrote:
Jezo wrote:
Hyperion wrote:
Jezo wrote:
Hyperion wrote:
The Watching Artist wrote:Deluxe


True dat

But Deluxe is way way better than vanilla 8. If anything, you'd say Mario Kart went wrong at 8, surely?


Lol no

You think vanilla 8 is better than Deluxe?


I think 8 is better than 8 Deluxe, yes

why


For me, the double items make it worse, it's just a complete clusterfuck.

My comment was partly in jest because I don't have it. But firstly I still think it's disappointing that it's just a GOTY type release. Not adding new tracks was a serious bummer for me. But I also agree with Pedz from my, admittedly limited experience, that double items has maybe a negative effect. I've seen some amazing things happen but I think when a person can be in last place with half a lap to go. Get a bullet bill and something else like a star or lightning and win by practically auto pilotting to the line something is a bit wrong. I felt it was wonderully balanced before. Ok it could still be strawberry floating annoying seeing people in front get better gooseberry fool then you but deep down you know your the one getting an advantage somewhen else. It looks like you spend even less time racing and more time dealing with items. Sure there is skill in using them but its still too dominant for my liking.

I also really like the customisation things. It brings a whole new element of personality to the series and frees you from being a slave to character stats. What to be a fat cheating banana split but struggle to turn him? Go for a more mobile but slower option. Want to be the cute baby but get smashed about a lot? Pick heavy tires and karts to counter it. It isn't rocket science.

Toads Turnpike is strawberry floating gooseberry fool fullstop.

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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by OrangeRakoon » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:26 pm

The Watching Artist wrote:But firstly I still think it's disappointing that it's just a GOTY type release. Not adding new tracks was a serious bummer for me.


Battle mode is too often forgotten, it's actually good in MK8D


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