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jiggles
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PostRe: Xbox Project Scorpio - 6Tflops console, 4K+VR gaming, full BC, 320GB/s memory bandwidth
by jiggles » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:04 pm

Photek wrote:
A good portion of PlayStation 4's success has been down to its spec advantage over Xbox One...


[citation needed]

Before PS4, only one console in the last 30 years was both the highest-spec and highest-selling (SNES), so it'd be safer to say it was more of a happy coincidence than the cause.

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Death's Head
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PostRe: Xbox Project Scorpio - 6Tflops console, 4K+VR gaming, full BC, 320GB/s memory bandwidth
by Death's Head » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:07 pm

Photek wrote:
Death's Head wrote:You have to wonder why there was no showing or announcement for the Neo. Given that Sony now know the approximate launch window of the Scorpio they have a lot of time to update it's specs if they feel this is necessary.

Not possible according to Digital Foundry:

It's a remarkable turnabout. A good portion of PlayStation 4's success has been down to its spec advantage over Xbox One, combined with a focus on the hardcore player. Sony's technological advantage will be gone with the next wave of hardware - we already know that it cannot support true 4K resolution on cutting-edge games, because we've seen the internal documents that outline Sony's upscaling strategies for 4K display support (more on that soon). It's also unfeasible for Sony to produce a radically revised Neo - the silicon has been designed, developer kits have gone out. Matching Scorpio would require scrapping Neo's existing processor completely.

Just about the only option available to Sony is the route Microsoft chose for Xbox One in the face of PS4's higher specification - overclocking the processor. It could inch the Neo a little closer to the target Scorpio spec, but hitting 6TF there is off the table: Sony would need a 40 CU Polaris 10 clocked at 1.2GHz to hit the same level. And that wouldn't address the 100GB/s bandwidth deficit or the 4GB memory gap we suspect will separate Neo and Scorpio.


http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-xbox-one-project-scorpio-spec-analysis


Well it is possible, they are just saying it isn't possible without changing the processor. Given the amount of time they have and that they decided not to announce the Neo, who knows what their next step will be.

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Photek
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PostRe: Xbox Project Scorpio - 6Tflops console, 4K+VR gaming, full BC, 320GB/s memory bandwidth
by Photek » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:10 pm

But they did announce it to the financial times. Neo's best bet is getting it out asap, having it release in anyway close to Scorpio may lessen the impact.

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Death's Head
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PostRe: Xbox Project Scorpio - 6Tflops console, 4K+VR gaming, full BC, 320GB/s memory bandwidth
by Death's Head » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Photek wrote:But they did announce it to the financial times. Neo's best bet is getting it out asap, having it release in anyway close to Scorpio may lessen the impact.

Regardless, they have lots of time in 18 months to do something if they feel they need to. No one knows what the impact of the Scorpio is going to be anyway. In 18 months everyone could be walking around with VR headsets strapped to their faces and might not want to shell out for a new console.

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Zellery
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PostRe: Xbox Project Scorpio - 6Tflops console, 4K+VR gaming, full BC, 320GB/s memory bandwidth
by Zellery » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:22 pm

jiggles wrote:
Photek wrote:
A good portion of PlayStation 4's success has been down to its spec advantage over Xbox One...


[citation needed]

Before PS4, only one console in the last 30 years was both the highest-spec and highest-selling (SNES), so it'd be safer to say it was more of a happy coincidence than the cause.

Indeed.

I'd say the overwhelming portion of Sony's success is that their main competitor decided that their player base wanted something that they most certainly did not.

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Photek
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PostRe: Xbox Project Scorpio - 6Tflops console, 4K+VR gaming, full BC, 320GB/s memory bandwidth
by Photek » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:22 pm

@ DH, First off, it's probably 16months, secondly, even 18months is not a lot of time, unless as DF say, they scrap Neo's processor.

Last edited by Photek on Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Photek
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PostRe: Xbox Project Scorpio - 6Tflops console, 4K+VR gaming, full BC, 320GB/s memory bandwidth
by Photek » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:23 pm

Zellery wrote:
jiggles wrote:
Photek wrote:
A good portion of PlayStation 4's success has been down to its spec advantage over Xbox One...


[citation needed]

Before PS4, only one console in the last 30 years was both the highest-spec and highest-selling (SNES), so it'd be safer to say it was more of a happy coincidence than the cause.

Indeed.

I'd say the overwhelming portion of Sony's success is that their main competitor decided that their player base wanted something that they most certainly did not.

Agreed, MS shot themselves in the foot, Sony capitalized brilliantly.

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Death's Head
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PostRe: Xbox Project Scorpio - 6Tflops console, 4K+VR gaming, full BC, 320GB/s memory bandwidth
by Death's Head » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:28 pm

Photek wrote:first off,it's probably 16months, secondly, even 18months is not a lot of time, unless as DF say, they scrap Neo's processor.

You'd be surprised what can be done in that time when need be. Most R&D don't wait on things to happen, they already have prototypes for various things that have been shelved for various reasons. Given that these consoles now use a lot of off the shelf parts (or are at least based on them), Sony will do whatever they feel necessary. If they see the Scorpio as a threat, they will react, their business depends on the success of the PS brand.

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Photek
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PostRe: Xbox Project Scorpio - 6Tflops console, 4K+VR gaming, full BC, 320GB/s memory bandwidth
by Photek » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:30 pm

Doesn't sound like Scorpio's processor is 'off the shelf'. I'd like to think DF know what they are talking about on these things, I can't profess to know more than them at all so ill take their word for now, hence the quote.

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HSH28
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PostRe: Xbox Project Scorpio - 6Tflops console, 4K+VR gaming, full BC, 320GB/s memory bandwidth
by HSH28 » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:33 pm

Zellery wrote:
jiggles wrote:
Photek wrote:
A good portion of PlayStation 4's success has been down to its spec advantage over Xbox One...


[citation needed]

Before PS4, only one console in the last 30 years was both the highest-spec and highest-selling (SNES), so it'd be safer to say it was more of a happy coincidence than the cause.

Indeed.

I'd say the overwhelming portion of Sony's success is that their main competitor decided that their player base wanted something that they most certainly did not.


You can't say that Sony hasn't capitalised on the fact it has the slightly more powerful hardware, or that multiplatform games running at a higher native resolution and framerate hasn't caused people to buy a PS4 over an Xbox One.

The history argument doesn't make an awful lot of sense to play either, because the situation we've been in with these two consoles launching at more or less the same time and offering more and more important multiplatform games (while the importance of exclusives has arguably been at its lowest ever), isn't a situation we've really seen before.

This is not to say that MS having the most powerful hardware on the market next year will change anything significantly, again the situation will be different with massive entrenched install bases of both the original versions of PS4 and Xbox One as well as the expected price tag being quite high, meaning the new version of the console is likely to get off to a slow start.

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Death's Head
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PostRe: Xbox Project Scorpio - 6Tflops console, 4K+VR gaming, full BC, 320GB/s memory bandwidth
by Death's Head » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:34 pm

The quote only says the Neo can't match the Scorpio without changing the processor. It doesn't say Sony aren't prepared to do this. There is no argument here.

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Zellery
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PostRe: Xbox Project Scorpio - 6Tflops console, 4K+VR gaming, full BC, 320GB/s memory bandwidth
by Zellery » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:35 pm

HSH28 wrote:
Zellery wrote:
jiggles wrote:
Photek wrote:
A good portion of PlayStation 4's success has been down to its spec advantage over Xbox One...


[citation needed]

Before PS4, only one console in the last 30 years was both the highest-spec and highest-selling (SNES), so it'd be safer to say it was more of a happy coincidence than the cause.

Indeed.

I'd say the overwhelming portion of Sony's success is that their main competitor decided that their player base wanted something that they most certainly did not.


You can't say that Sony hasn't capitalised on the fact it has the slightly more powerful hardware, or that multiplatform games running at a higher native resolution and framerate hasn't caused people to buy a PS4 over an Xbox One.

The history argument doesn't make an awful lot of sense to play either, because the situation we've been in with these two consoles launching at more or less the same time and offering more and more important multiplatform games (while the importance of exclusives has arguably been at its lowest ever), isn't a situation we've really seen before.

This is not to say that MS having the most powerful hardware on the market next year will change anything significantly, again the situation will be different with massive entrenched install bases of both the original versions of PS4 and Xbox One as well as the expected price tag being quite high, meaning the new version of the console is likely to get off to a slow start.

I'm not saying that having the better console hasn't helped, but this generation was decided extremely early after both console reveals.

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Photek
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PostRe: Xbox Project Scorpio - 6Tflops console, 4K+VR gaming, full BC, 320GB/s memory bandwidth
by Photek » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:36 pm

Death's Head wrote:The quote only says the Neo can't match the Scorpio without changing the processor. It doesn't say Sony aren't prepared to do this. There is no argument here.

Not just the processor, i reckon Neo will come out on spec and might bump up in 2019. Generational consoles, at least on MS' side are over.

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HSH28
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PostRe: Xbox Project Scorpio - 6Tflops console, 4K+VR gaming, full BC, 320GB/s memory bandwidth
by HSH28 » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:37 pm

Death's Head wrote:The quote only says the Neo can't match the Scorpio without changing the processor. It doesn't say Sony aren't prepared to do this. There is no argument here.


Read it again...

It's also unfeasible for Sony to produce a radically revised Neo - the silicon has been designed, developer kits have gone out. Matching Scorpio would require scrapping Neo's existing processor completely.


Scrapping the Neo's processor would definitely be radically revising it.

HSH28
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PostRe: Xbox Project Scorpio - 6Tflops console, 4K+VR gaming, full BC, 320GB/s memory bandwidth
by HSH28 » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:39 pm

Zellery wrote:I'm not saying that having the better console hasn't helped, but this generation was decided extremely early after both console reveals.


I don't agree.

I'm sure it made an impact, but if the Xbox One had been released on par with the PS4 in terms of its raw power things would have been radically different in the west.

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Death's Head
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PostRe: Xbox Project Scorpio - 6Tflops console, 4K+VR gaming, full BC, 320GB/s memory bandwidth
by Death's Head » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:39 pm

Maybe they will scrap it, maybe they will bring it out and bring something else later. Who knows? It will come down to what return Sony think they will get and which option they consider least risky.

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Photek
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PostRe: Xbox Project Scorpio - 6Tflops console, 4K+VR gaming, full BC, 320GB/s memory bandwidth
by Photek » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:42 pm

HSH28 wrote:
Death's Head wrote:The quote only says the Neo can't match the Scorpio without changing the processor. It doesn't say Sony aren't prepared to do this. There is no argument here.


Read it again...

It's also unfeasible for Sony to produce a radically revised Neo - the silicon has been designed, developer kits have gone out. Matching Scorpio would require scrapping Neo's existing processor completely.


Scrapping the Neo's processor would definitely be radically revising it.

Probably at some cost also.

The thing for me is this, I don't much care for VR or sales but this Scorpio is literally right up my street. It'll be pretty powerful so will appeal to my graphics junkie eyes plus, if 360 back compat keeps going at the pace it is, it will most likely run every single xbox game I own from day one.

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Photek
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PostRe: Xbox Project Scorpio - 6Tflops console, 4K+VR gaming, full BC, 320GB/s memory bandwidth
by Photek » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:44 pm

Death's Head wrote:Maybe they will scrap it, maybe they will bring it out and bring something else later. Who knows? It will come down to what return Sony think they will get and which option they consider least risky.

Making Neo while maintaining the sales lead they have would be the least risky.

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Garth
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PostRe: Xbox Project Scorpio - 6Tflops GPU, 8 core CPU, 4K+VR gaming, full BC, 320GB/s memory bandwidth
by Garth » Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:08 pm

Some info from Phil Spencer -

On future Xbox upgrades:
“Consumer expectation is that, if you wanted to, you could go buy a new cell phone every year. I don’t want to get into that mode with a console,” Spencer says. “I see the next inflection point as 4K, and I want to make sure we have a console there to support that, and Scorpio will do that. We’re not on a hardware tick-tock that says I need to put out a console every two years or every one year to get people to upgrade. That’s not the console model.”

Xbox One not powerful enough to do VR well:
“When we went out and talked to VR developers,” Spencer says, “the capability and the hardware spec that they need to deliver a console-like experience to VR was a requirement of 6 teraflops, which clearly, today’s consoles—PlayStation 4 and Xbox One—don’t have.” This is something of a shot across the bow at Xbox’s chief rival, whose forthcoming Playstation VR headset will work with its standard PlayStation 4.

Spencer maintains, though, that the VR experiences on today’s consoles won’t look as good as standard games. “The truth is, a console that can run a 2-D version of Doom or Fallout today, which a PS4 and Xbox One can, is not going to be able to do a stereoscopic, high-framerate version of those games,” he says. “We don’t want to force VR into a middle ground between the scale that we see in mobile, and what our customers [expect].” So even though future Xbox games will be compatible with all the Xbox One systems, the VR games will likely be Scorpio-exclusive.

No Microsoft VR headset:
When you do play VR on Project Scorpio, what exactly will you be putting on your head? Spencer isn’t saying, but it won’t be made by Microsoft. “Right now we are not focused on a first-party VR hardware device,” he says. He didn’t call out any particular headset that might plug into Scorpio, but noted that Microsoft hoped to “enable many hardware manufacturers to make progress there.” So it might be a BYOHMD situation. Maybe you even already own your Xbox VR headset.
I think that's great TBH, no need for another expensive headset fighting for exclusives - they can support multiple headsets on the Xbox this way and get plenty of 3rd party games.

On more backwards compatibility:
Microsoft has been working hard to make more and more Xbox 360 games backward compatible with Xbox One — Spencer calls out the 360-exclusive Japanese role-playing games Blue Dragon and Lost Odyssey as his most-wanted games, and says the team is working on getting them running on Xbox One as we speak — and those backward compatible games, too, will work on Scorpio.

“I’ve talked about a desire to do the original Xbox backward compatibility,” he says—he’s wearing a shirt with the original Bill Gates-era Xbox logo on it. “We’re not working on that right now, but it’s theoretically very possible. On the CPU side, we could figure it out. I think people should have access to the games that they love”

http://www.wired.com/2016/06/xbox-vr-sc ... al_twitter

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Photek
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PostRe: Xbox Project Scorpio - 6Tflops GPU, 8 core CPU, 4K+VR gaming, full BC, 320GB/s memory bandwidth
by Photek » Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:10 pm

Lost Oddysey. :wub:

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