Xbox Indie Games - Dream-Build-Play 2009 winners! p18

[mokeyjoe]

Some of these Indie Games look fantastic. Dust especially.

It does look a lot like Odin Sphere though - I hope it isn't as dependent on grinding, as that ruined the game for me a little.

[Matthew Doucette]

Just watched a lot of this years Dreambuild entries and I'm really impressed by a lot of them. The games look light years ahead of the previous years entries, I'd be tempted to buy quite a few of them. People must be getting really comfortable with the XNA Game Studio these days.

So glad to read this post.

It just takes a while to make a good game. By nature of time vs. quality, bad games, on a new platform, are released first. For the last year, gamers and reviewers have been putting down Xbox LIVE Indie (Community) Games, and all the while I found it to be a joke, as developers who are taking time to polish their games haven't had a chance to release games, yet. Anyone looking to spend a year on a game, cannot release the game until a year has passed by. By default, you are only going to get games made quickly.* How did everyone miss this?

Prejudging is so uninsightful.

Sorry for the rant. I'm glad that these days are now over!!! Time for great indie games on the Xbox!

*I do realize that XNA has been out for years, but it took a Dream Build Play and XBLCG (XBLIG) to attract attention to it. And that's when the count truly starts.

[The Alchemist Penguin]

Matthew, I was wondering your thoughts on two (probably rather pedantic) points. It annoys me how when you play an Indie Game it says "Indie Game" on your friend's list instead of the actual game. Is there any talk from Microsoft of them changing this to have the game name appear properly?

Also, the way the listings for Sex/Violence/Maturity are just stuck in the product description, instead of, say, being little rating stars where the 15/18 ratings are for normal games, make it seem very amateurish.

With Indie Games getting such a bad rep I think Microsoft should be doing all they can to make the service seem better and more professional, and those things just seem to get in the way of that. Without achievements Indie games seem to really need to fight for people's cash (which is rather sad, really) but there are many small things that Microsoft can do to make them more appealing (like having them appear in your played games list) which they aren't bothering with at the moment. I was just wondering if they are still listening to things like that or if it's hard getting in contact with people who can make changes?

[Jax]

Rllmukian 'mr_square' has a game up now:

Think of it as Dotstream, with added funk. Adaptive music, local multiplayer for up to 8 people, music creation mode, and online leaderboards.







Let me know what you think

http://www.rllmukforum.com/index.php?s= ... &p=6315040

Tried that, it's actually pretty good. I'm not very good at it though, it's quite hard.

[TheTurnipKing]

Band of bears looked great but then it turned out to be a 4 swords clone

Nintendo don't seem interested in making a sequel so it's about time someone stepped up and filled that gap in the market.

I must admit that I too, fail to see the problem with a 4 Swords Clone that I can play online with my friends.

[Eighthours]

Based on these videos the future looks bright for Indie Games, as long as the new ratings system does succeed in elevating the good games to the top of the pile.

In the past, distinguishing between something worth playing, and shitty shovelware, was difficult.

[qupe]

Based on these videos the future looks bright for Indie Games, as long as the new ratings system does succeed in elevating the good games to the top of the pile.

In the past, distinguishing between something worth playing, and shitty shovelware, was difficult.

So maybe we could do our own recommended games part to this thread or a separate thread?

Maybe we could do a thread that people would vote in and collate the votes with the recommended games on the first page?

Recommend
Trial
Avoid

My only issue with this would be some games have become worth recommending due to price decreases, Biology Battle was 800pts it's now 240 and I would recommend it at that price.

[Eighthours]

Based on these videos the future looks bright for Indie Games, as long as the new ratings system does succeed in elevating the good games to the top of the pile.

In the past, distinguishing between something worth playing, and shitty shovelware, was difficult.

So maybe we could do our own recommended games part to this thread or a separate thread?

Maybe we could do a thread that people would vote in and collate the votes with the recommended games on the first page?

Recommend
Trial
Avoid

My only issue with this would be some games have become worth recommending due to price decreases, Biology Battle was 800pts it's now 240 and I would recommend it at that price.

Some kind of thread where games are rated and recommended would be a great idea!

[qupe]

Based on these videos the future looks bright for Indie Games, as long as the new ratings system does succeed in elevating the good games to the top of the pile.

In the past, distinguishing between something worth playing, and shitty shovelware, was difficult.

So maybe we could do our own recommended games part to this thread or a separate thread?

Maybe we could do a thread that people would vote in and collate the votes with the recommended games on the first page?

Recommend
Trial
Avoid

My only issue with this would be some games have become worth recommending due to price decreases, Biology Battle was 800pts it's now 240 and I would recommend it at that price.

Some kind of thread where games are rated and recommended would be a great idea!

Do you want to start it or should I? I could draft something up and we can always edit it as we go along.

[Matthew Doucette]

Matthew, I was wondering your thoughts on two (probably rather pedantic) points. It annoys me how when you play an Indie Game it says "Indie Game" on your friend's list instead of the actual game. Is there any talk from Microsoft of them changing this to have the game name appear properly?

Also, the way the listings for Sex/Violence/Maturity are just stuck in the product description, instead of, say, being little rating stars where the 15/18 ratings are for normal games, make it seem very amateurish.

With Indie Games getting such a bad rep I think Microsoft should be doing all they can to make the service seem better and more professional, and those things just seem to get in the way of that. Without achievements Indie games seem to really need to fight for people's cash (which is rather sad, really) but there are many small things that Microsoft can do to make them more appealing (like having them appear in your played games list) which they aren't bothering with at the moment. I was just wondering if they are still listening to things like that or if it's hard getting in contact with people who can make changes?

Funny you ask me these questions, as I was the one who filed a connect issue* on your second point:

split "Community Classifications" and "Description":
http://forums.xna.com/forums/t/21358.aspx
https://connect.microsoft.com/feedback/ ... SiteID=226

Please vote it up!

As for the first point, I wanted the same thing and talked about it in the xna.com forums. I cannot find it. I do not remember if I, or anyone, filed a connect issue or not.

To answer your final question, to make changes post a forum in xna.com (to get feedback and support) and file an connect issue. Feel free to try it out.

*Microsoft Connect is their bug/suggestion service. You want changes, submit them here.

[The Alchemist Penguin]

I'll do that, thanks!

I know Microsoft don't want to add achievements because they fear people will harvest 80 point games for cheap gamerscore, but why don't they allow XNA games to have achievements worth 0 points? It would solve that issue easily, although it might take a bit of work on Microsoft's side to implement. I'm not really asking you that question directly, I'm just musing to myself out loud.

[mokeyjoe]

And people will release stupidly easy games so people buy them for the points.

They'd need a separate system for Indie games. But with that things start to get a little convoluted.

There's nothing stopping developers instigating in game 'achievements' on their own I suppose.

What happened to the days when people played games just because they were entertaining?

[The Alchemist Penguin]

You seemed to have missed a bit of my post!

I know Microsoft don't want to add achievements because they fear people will harvest 80 point games for cheap gamerscore, but why don't they allow XNA games to have achievements worth 0 points?

It seems that if Indie Games were better tied into the core Xbox experience, appearing on your play game list/having achievements other people can see that you've got etc... then they'd be better accepted by users. At the moment, they're seen as second-class games due to a number of reasons. Developers are stepping up and releasing top quality games on the service now, so Microsoft should follow suit and give Indie Games a top quality infrastructure to back them too.

Anyway, to answer your question, it's quite possible people will turn their noses up at 0 point achievements, but personally I get fun achievements because I want to get them, not because of the score, so the system would be perfect for me. I don't mind game specific achievements, but they lack the ability to easily let you see what achievements your friends have unlocked and I normally play games at the same time as my real-life mates and chatting about what achievements we've got fits nicely along side talking about how we tackled bosses or any other challenge in the game.

[TheTurnipKing]

You seemed to have missed a bit of my post!

I know Microsoft don't want to add achievements because they fear people will harvest 80 point games for cheap gamerscore, but why don't they allow XNA games to have achievements worth 0 points?

It seems that if Indie Games were better tied into the core Xbox experience, appearing on your play game list/having achievements other people can see that you've got etc... then they'd be better accepted by users. At the moment, they're seen as second-class games due to a number of reasons. Developers are stepping up and releasing top quality games on the service now, so Microsoft should follow suit and give Indie Games a top quality infrastructure to back them too.

Anyway, to answer your question, it's quite possible people will turn their noses up at 0 point achievements, but personally I get fun achievements because I want to get them, not because of the score, so the system would be perfect for me. I don't mind game specific achievements, but they lack the ability to easily let you see what achievements your friends have unlocked and I normally play games at the same time as my real-life mates and chatting about what achievements we've got fits nicely along side talking about how we tackled bosses or any other challenge in the game.

I would guess it's at least partially so that they themselves can keep an eye on the XNA games that are produced and if they see anything great, they can "upgrade" them to full XBLA title, complete with stuff like achievements.

"indie" games ARE second-class games, and almost everyone is happy to have them remain that way. For new developers it's a "foot in the door" that they didn't have before.

[Eighthours]

Based on these videos the future looks bright for Indie Games, as long as the new ratings system does succeed in elevating the good games to the top of the pile.

In the past, distinguishing between something worth playing, and shitty shovelware, was difficult.

So maybe we could do our own recommended games part to this thread or a separate thread?

Maybe we could do a thread that people would vote in and collate the votes with the recommended games on the first page?

Recommend
Trial
Avoid

My only issue with this would be some games have become worth recommending due to price decreases, Biology Battle was 800pts it's now 240 and I would recommend it at that price.

Some kind of thread where games are rated and recommended would be a great idea!

Do you want to start it or should I? I could draft something up and we can always edit it as we go along.

Go ahead!

As for the Indie Games section of the dashboard, it needs to be not so hidden away. I bet that many of the more casual gamers with 360s haven't even seen it.

[Matthew Doucette]

I know Microsoft don't want to add achievements because they fear people will harvest 80 point games for cheap gamerscore, but why don't they allow XNA games to have achievements worth 0 points? It would solve that issue easily...

I wouldn't say this as a fact. I've been fighting for achievements and leaderboards, a lot, on the forums. Well, at least I did a long time ago. But, I put it to rest, hoping the XNA team will eventually deliver it to us.

I don't think 0 point achievements are the solution, but, instead just less points.

If an 80 microsoft point game has 20 achievement points, then why would you buy 10 "game-less" games that give it away, when you could buy an 800 microsoft point game that has 200 achievement points as well as a game? The solution I argued for was less points (according to the price), not zero.

DISCLAIMER EDIT: I know there are some 400 and 1,200 microsoft point XBLA titles that also offer 200 achievement points, which messes with the formula I propose, but a solution can still be found as long as you go with the cheapest XBLA titles (which now are pretty much 800 point'ers) so that you don't have anyone buying games just to hoard points.

[Garth]

Yeah I think something small like 20 Gamerscore per Indie Game would be fine, definitely not system-breaking. If the games were free it would be a concern, but they're not.

[TheTurnipKing]

Heh, check out all the gamerscore addicts jonesing for another fix.

[Yungstar 2006]

what ever happened to Jellycar?

[Matthew Doucette]

Heh, check out all the gamerscore addicts jonesing for another fix.

From a developer's perspective (often not all that understanding of the gamer's perspective), we have to accept that gamerscore is important. A lot of developers do not accept this, but we do. We are making games on a system that has taught all its gamers that gamerscore is important. This is why I cannot see that Indie Games will forever have no achievements with gamerscore points.

I think the biggest problem would be deciding how to regulate it (you basically have to assume some developers will abuse whatever you offer them), thus my recommendation to make it work even in the extreme case of a dev making an "easy gamerscore points: just press start" game.