YouTube shut down channel because of Read Dead video that shows murder of feminist

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Venom
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PostYouTube shut down channel because of Read Dead video that shows murder of feminist
by Venom » Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:11 am

The times are a changing.


one YouTuber using the handle Shirrako uploaded a video of his avatar walking up to a suffragette character who is wearing a sash and calling out “Let me vote”, and beating her unconscious. The video, named “Red Dead Redemption 2 – Beating up annoying feminist” – has been seen more than 1.5m times.

Many of the comments underneath the video supported the actions. “Rockstar, making dreams a reality,” wrote one. “Why can’t we do this in real life?” wrote another. Other users said they had done similar things while playing the game.

But many viewers were concerned.

“This is a complicated problem with detailed, open world games that prioritise player choice,” wrote Emanuel Maiberg, managing editor of technology site Motherboard, on Twitter.

“What’s not complicated is that there’s a reservoir of video game players who hate women and get off on this.”

“This is how backwards, stupid and warped a portion of young men on the internet are,” wrote EckhartsLadder, a Star Wars YouTuber.

Shirrako followed up with several other videos showing his character attacking the woman, including one called “Dropping feminist to hell and killing the devil” that shows him lassooing the character and carrying her to a mine shaft which he drops her down. Another shows him feeding her to an alligator.

The videos raise further questions about sexism in video games and the gaming industry, which came to the fore during Gamergate, which saw feminist media critic Anita Sarkeesian become the target of widespread harassment and violent threats in response to her discussions of misogyny in video game culture
.

https://www.theguardian.com/games/2018/ ... uffragette

The player in question, going by the handle ‘Shirrako,’ uploaded a series of videos where they murdered a suffragette in a variety of ways, from dropping her down a mineshaft to feeding her to an alligator.

YouTube has allegedly terminated Shirrako’s channel due to mass outrage over the videos - which KEEMSTAR is taking issue with.

“YouTube, we cannot take this stance,” KEEMSTAR implored. “We can’t say that what someone does in a video game is reflective of real life, somehow.”


https://www.dexerto.com/entertainment/k ... n-2-213364

Apparently, after Keemstar’s complaint direct to Google they’ve reinstated the channel with an age restriction.

There are some MANY people on Reddit that are calling critics of the ban, alt-right misogynists. I suspect some here agree.

So now fedora-wearing misogynists, far right wing fringers, etc., are up in arms about it trying to pretend its censorship and PC culture ruining...whatever it is they do.


https://www.reddit.com/r/reddeadredempt ... ng_female/

But why should killing in games be okay, and this not?

The implications are that your in-game actions will have real world punishments. Certainly under UK law this MIGHT be regarded a hate crime.

Last edited by Venom on Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:44 am, edited 3 times in total.
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PostRe: YouTube shut down channel because of Read Dead video that shows murder of feminist
by rinks » Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:34 am

It’s one thing to perform an action in a game. It’s quite another to use a game to animate a series of hate crimes and upload them to YouTube, labelled in such a way that will attract misogynists.

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PostRe: YouTube shut down channel because of Read Dead video that shows murder of feminist
by Moggy » Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:48 am

I wouldn't class it as a hate crime but YouTube are within their rights to remove the video.

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PostRe: YouTube shut down channel because of Read Dead video that shows murder of feminist
by Venom » Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:58 am

Moggy wrote:I wouldn't class it as a hate crime but YouTube are within their rights to remove the video.


I can’t remember the exact terminology, but I believe it’s words or actions taken to deliberately cause offence. So not dissimilar to those people who burnt an effigy of Grenfell Tower on Bonfire Night.

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PostRe: YouTube shut down channel because of Read Dead video that shows murder of feminist
by Moggy » Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:06 am

Venom wrote:
Moggy wrote:I wouldn't class it as a hate crime but YouTube are within their rights to remove the video.


I can’t remember the exact terminology, but I believe it’s words or actions taken to deliberately cause offence. So not dissimilar to those people who burnt an effigy of Grenfell Tower on Bonfire Night.


If he gave the character he was killing in the game the name of a real life person then I’d agree. If it’s just a random game character then I think it’s different. Scummy behaviour, but not a crime.

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PostRe: YouTube shut down channel because of Read Dead video that shows murder of feminist
by GrinWithoutaKat » Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:26 am

I think it’s quite clear it’s not what he’s doing in the game that is the issue, but the genuine hate that seems to be getting encouraged on his channel.

I’ve been watching a fairly small YouTuber stream RDR2 recently, (originally discovered him through his NMS videos). He seems like a lovely guy, but I’ve been really surprised to see how much bashing the female sex gets from his audience chat (without him saying or doing anything to bring the topic up). The tone of it doesn’t come across as joking at all, but suggests a very real and deep hatred towards women from the people typing. It really shocked me and got me wondering just how widespread this problem is. My interaction with other gamers is usually limited to here and Resetera, obviously not seen it here, and I imagine at Resetera if it did get posted it would be deleted within minutes and a ban handed out. I rarely play games when they come out, so hardly ever watch streamers.

Last edited by GrinWithoutaKat on Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
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PostRe: YouTube shut down channel because of Read Dead video that shows murder of feminist
by Sandy » Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:27 am

This could definitely be considered a hate crime in the UK. It's not what he did that's the crime, it's the uploading of what he did to a public forum with the intention to cause distress. If he was in the UK they would prosecute.

I would say that Rockstar are complict in this as well. Even in the early 1900s people wouldn't just stand by and watch someone murdering someone in the steet. Especially a street where everyone is carrying guns. So many of the people that would be happy with this video are the same people that complain about realism in games being really important. The easy fix would be that the second you kill or harass the NPC, all the decent people in the street turn round and shoot you dead and then take all of your stuff. You lose everything. Even if you revert to a previous save you've lost everything because we want to make it realistic and it's not realistic to die and then get everything you lost back.

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PostRe: YouTube shut down channel because of Read Dead video that shows murder of feminist
by Knoyleo » Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:43 am

GrinWithoutaKat wrote:I think it’s quite clear it’s not what he’s doing in the game that is the issue, but the genuine hate that seems to be getting encouraged on his channel.

I’ve been watching a fairly small YouTuber stream RDR2 recently, (originally discovered him through his NMS videos). He seems like a lovely guy, but I’ve been really surprised to see how much bashing the female sex gets from his audience chat (without him saying or doing anything to bring the topic up). The tone of it doesn’t come across as joking at all, but suggests a very real and deep hatred towards women from the people typing. It really shocked me and got me wondering just how widespread this problem is. My interaction with other gamers is usually limited to here and Resetera, obviously not seen it here, and I imagine at Resetera if it did get posted it would be deleted within minutes and a ban handed out. I rarely play games when they come out, so hardly ever watch streamers.

The most vocal portions of the videogame community remain strawberry floating awful. I was watching some RDR2 streams when it came out to see what the game was like. Watched someone lasso a witness and the them up, only for the comments to be flooded with people typing "RAPE HIM".

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PostRe: YouTube shut down channel because of Read Dead video that shows murder of feminist
by Dig Dug » Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:57 am

Moggy wrote:
Venom wrote:
Moggy wrote:I wouldn't class it as a hate crime but YouTube are within their rights to remove the video.


I can’t remember the exact terminology, but I believe it’s words or actions taken to deliberately cause offence. So not dissimilar to those people who burnt an effigy of Grenfell Tower on Bonfire Night.


If he gave the character he was killing in the game the name of a real life person then I’d agree. If it’s just a random game character then I think it’s different. Scummy behaviour, but not a crime.

I think it the context of how the video maker frames the character and actions that allow youtube to take the stance they did.
The character may not be a real person but they they are identified as something that many people themselves are, feminists. The video explicitly uses the context of a feminist portrayal as the motive behind doing villainous game actions and then pushes those actions as an exhibition. It is not an exhibition of how to act like an outlaw in the old west (kidnap a woman and tie her to train tracks) but an exhibition of how RDR2 can be used to fulfil the fantasy of harming, torturing, or killing progressives/feminists.

If players want to kill that character because they don't like what she represents, they can, in fact it wouldn't even be historically inaccurate to do so (women were killed for wanting the vote). What isn't part of the game however is compiling that footage to be used as what could be considered anti-progressive propaganda or merely what could be considered a work of poor taste.
It isn't the attack on the character that is at the front of these videos but the attack of an idealism. "Beating up annoying feminist", emphasis on the use of the word annoying there as to plant this idea of the radical "SJW" straw feminist, something that to many people is what feminists class under by default because the idea is so commonly perpetuated.

Games are creative works (you could even call them art) where the player is given a degree of co-authorship over the media. The game is the canvas and the actions available to the player is their paint brush and oils which they use to create meaning. If the meaning of the video was expressed in the forms of paintings, film, text etc we would be more inclined to put the creator under scrutiny, but because he is performing these actions within a digital sandbox where all actions exists as laws rather than rules and principles we are more inclined to look past it all and say "but it isn't real".

The medium (youtube video) is the message, and the message is how this game unintentionally sets itself up to let people intentionally play out scenarios where they can punish caricatures of stereotypes. I don't think Rockstar would have been thinking of the game on these terms when it was being designed but under the right conditions this fictional feminist could very easily become a symbol or target whom certain groups of people use to unite over, something worryingly similar to how modern anti-feminist/progressive movements form over the internet when it comes to reacting to real-world progressives.

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PostRe: YouTube shut down channel because of Read Dead video that shows murder of feminist
by Photek » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:05 am

GrinWithoutaKat wrote:I think it’s quite clear it’s not what he’s doing in the game that is the issue, but the genuine hate that seems to be getting encouraged on his channel.

I’ve been watching a fairly small YouTuber stream RDR2 recently, (originally discovered him through his NMS videos). He seems like a lovely guy, but I’ve been really surprised to see how much bashing the female sex gets from his audience chat (without him saying or doing anything to bring the topic up). The tone of it doesn’t come across as joking at all, but suggests a very real and deep hatred towards women from the people typing. It really shocked me and got me wondering just how widespread this problem is. My interaction with other gamers is usually limited to here and Resetera, obviously not seen it here, and I imagine at Resetera if it did get posted it would be deleted within minutes and a ban handed out. I rarely play games when they come out, so hardly ever watch streamers.

He should ban them from chat, I am of the opnion that youtubers and streamers in general have a resonsibility to ban dickheads from their chat.

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PostRe: YouTube shut down channel because of Read Dead video that shows murder of feminist
by Knoyleo » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:11 am

Photek wrote:
GrinWithoutaKat wrote:I think it’s quite clear it’s not what he’s doing in the game that is the issue, but the genuine hate that seems to be getting encouraged on his channel.

I’ve been watching a fairly small YouTuber stream RDR2 recently, (originally discovered him through his NMS videos). He seems like a lovely guy, but I’ve been really surprised to see how much bashing the female sex gets from his audience chat (without him saying or doing anything to bring the topic up). The tone of it doesn’t come across as joking at all, but suggests a very real and deep hatred towards women from the people typing. It really shocked me and got me wondering just how widespread this problem is. My interaction with other gamers is usually limited to here and Resetera, obviously not seen it here, and I imagine at Resetera if it did get posted it would be deleted within minutes and a ban handed out. I rarely play games when they come out, so hardly ever watch streamers.

He should ban them from chat, I am of the opnion that youtubers and streamers in general have a resonsibility to ban dickheads from their chat.

How feasible is it, though, for someone who is live streaming a game, to also monitor a chat channel at the same time? Especially when you see how busy some of those chats are.

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PostRe: YouTube shut down channel because of Read Dead video that shows murder of feminist
by Photek » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:15 am

If the chat is busy then the streamer has a big audience and in that case they should have mods. Several big streamers I watch ban people constantly.

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PostRe: YouTube shut down channel because of Read Dead video that shows murder of feminist
by Pedz » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:15 am

Knoyleo wrote:
Photek wrote:
GrinWithoutaKat wrote:I think it’s quite clear it’s not what he’s doing in the game that is the issue, but the genuine hate that seems to be getting encouraged on his channel.

I’ve been watching a fairly small YouTuber stream RDR2 recently, (originally discovered him through his NMS videos). He seems like a lovely guy, but I’ve been really surprised to see how much bashing the female sex gets from his audience chat (without him saying or doing anything to bring the topic up). The tone of it doesn’t come across as joking at all, but suggests a very real and deep hatred towards women from the people typing. It really shocked me and got me wondering just how widespread this problem is. My interaction with other gamers is usually limited to here and Resetera, obviously not seen it here, and I imagine at Resetera if it did get posted it would be deleted within minutes and a ban handed out. I rarely play games when they come out, so hardly ever watch streamers.

He should ban them from chat, I am of the opnion that youtubers and streamers in general have a resonsibility to ban dickheads from their chat.

How feasible is it, though, for someone who is live streaming a game, to also monitor a chat channel at the same time? Especially when you see how busy some of those chats are.


I don't know about youtube, but on Twitch and I think Mixer you can have mods. You then have the mods do that.

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PostRe: YouTube shut down channel because of Read Dead video that shows murder of feminist
by Knoyleo » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:21 am

Pedz wrote:
Knoyleo wrote:
Photek wrote:
GrinWithoutaKat wrote:I think it’s quite clear it’s not what he’s doing in the game that is the issue, but the genuine hate that seems to be getting encouraged on his channel.

I’ve been watching a fairly small YouTuber stream RDR2 recently, (originally discovered him through his NMS videos). He seems like a lovely guy, but I’ve been really surprised to see how much bashing the female sex gets from his audience chat (without him saying or doing anything to bring the topic up). The tone of it doesn’t come across as joking at all, but suggests a very real and deep hatred towards women from the people typing. It really shocked me and got me wondering just how widespread this problem is. My interaction with other gamers is usually limited to here and Resetera, obviously not seen it here, and I imagine at Resetera if it did get posted it would be deleted within minutes and a ban handed out. I rarely play games when they come out, so hardly ever watch streamers.

He should ban them from chat, I am of the opnion that youtubers and streamers in general have a resonsibility to ban dickheads from their chat.

How feasible is it, though, for someone who is live streaming a game, to also monitor a chat channel at the same time? Especially when you see how busy some of those chats are.


I don't know about youtube, but on Twitch and I think Mixer you can have mods. You then have the mods do that.

How does that work, then? Are the mods automated, or actual people? Is the streamer expected to organise it themselves, or do Twitch have a team of mods who oversee popular streams?

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PostRe: YouTube shut down channel because of Read Dead video that shows murder of feminist
by Pedz » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:23 am

Knoyleo wrote:
Pedz wrote:
Knoyleo wrote:
Photek wrote:
GrinWithoutaKat wrote:I think it’s quite clear it’s not what he’s doing in the game that is the issue, but the genuine hate that seems to be getting encouraged on his channel.

I’ve been watching a fairly small YouTuber stream RDR2 recently, (originally discovered him through his NMS videos). He seems like a lovely guy, but I’ve been really surprised to see how much bashing the female sex gets from his audience chat (without him saying or doing anything to bring the topic up). The tone of it doesn’t come across as joking at all, but suggests a very real and deep hatred towards women from the people typing. It really shocked me and got me wondering just how widespread this problem is. My interaction with other gamers is usually limited to here and Resetera, obviously not seen it here, and I imagine at Resetera if it did get posted it would be deleted within minutes and a ban handed out. I rarely play games when they come out, so hardly ever watch streamers.

He should ban them from chat, I am of the opnion that youtubers and streamers in general have a resonsibility to ban dickheads from their chat.

How feasible is it, though, for someone who is live streaming a game, to also monitor a chat channel at the same time? Especially when you see how busy some of those chats are.


I don't know about youtube, but on Twitch and I think Mixer you can have mods. You then have the mods do that.

How does that work, then? Are the mods automated, or actual people? Is the streamer expected to organise it themselves, or do Twitch have a team of mods who oversee popular streams?


You make people mods. On my channel, I made Jazzem and Matt mods. it's easy you just type in chat /mod *username* and if they become dicks you type /unmod *username*

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PostRe: YouTube shut down channel because of Read Dead video that shows murder of feminist
by Photek » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:23 am

Knoyleo wrote:
Pedz wrote:
Knoyleo wrote:
Photek wrote:
GrinWithoutaKat wrote:I think it’s quite clear it’s not what he’s doing in the game that is the issue, but the genuine hate that seems to be getting encouraged on his channel.

I’ve been watching a fairly small YouTuber stream RDR2 recently, (originally discovered him through his NMS videos). He seems like a lovely guy, but I’ve been really surprised to see how much bashing the female sex gets from his audience chat (without him saying or doing anything to bring the topic up). The tone of it doesn’t come across as joking at all, but suggests a very real and deep hatred towards women from the people typing. It really shocked me and got me wondering just how widespread this problem is. My interaction with other gamers is usually limited to here and Resetera, obviously not seen it here, and I imagine at Resetera if it did get posted it would be deleted within minutes and a ban handed out. I rarely play games when they come out, so hardly ever watch streamers.

He should ban them from chat, I am of the opnion that youtubers and streamers in general have a resonsibility to ban dickheads from their chat.

How feasible is it, though, for someone who is live streaming a game, to also monitor a chat channel at the same time? Especially when you see how busy some of those chats are.


I don't know about youtube, but on Twitch and I think Mixer you can have mods. You then have the mods do that.

How does that work, then? Are the mods automated, or actual people? Is the streamer expected to organise it themselves, or do Twitch have a team of mods who oversee popular streams?

All of the above afaik.

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PostRe: YouTube shut down channel because of Read Dead video that shows murder of feminist
by Pedz » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:26 am

Photek wrote:
Knoyleo wrote:
Pedz wrote:
Knoyleo wrote:
Photek wrote:
GrinWithoutaKat wrote:I think it’s quite clear it’s not what he’s doing in the game that is the issue, but the genuine hate that seems to be getting encouraged on his channel.

I’ve been watching a fairly small YouTuber stream RDR2 recently, (originally discovered him through his NMS videos). He seems like a lovely guy, but I’ve been really surprised to see how much bashing the female sex gets from his audience chat (without him saying or doing anything to bring the topic up). The tone of it doesn’t come across as joking at all, but suggests a very real and deep hatred towards women from the people typing. It really shocked me and got me wondering just how widespread this problem is. My interaction with other gamers is usually limited to here and Resetera, obviously not seen it here, and I imagine at Resetera if it did get posted it would be deleted within minutes and a ban handed out. I rarely play games when they come out, so hardly ever watch streamers.

He should ban them from chat, I am of the opnion that youtubers and streamers in general have a resonsibility to ban dickheads from their chat.

How feasible is it, though, for someone who is live streaming a game, to also monitor a chat channel at the same time? Especially when you see how busy some of those chats are.


I don't know about youtube, but on Twitch and I think Mixer you can have mods. You then have the mods do that.

How does that work, then? Are the mods automated, or actual people? Is the streamer expected to organise it themselves, or do Twitch have a team of mods who oversee popular streams?

All of the above afaik.


Actually yeah, there is automod. You can even set up filters for certain words or phrases, then there are the twitch mod/admin people and then the mods you make yourself, which are actual people.

I assume Mixer is the same, I've not streamed as much to it as Twitch.

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PostRe: YouTube shut down channel because of Read Dead video that shows murder of feminist
by OrangeRKN » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:42 am

rinks wrote:It’s one thing to perform an action in a game. It’s quite another to use a game to animate a series of hate crimes and upload them to YouTube, labelled in such a way that will attract misogynists.


Sums it up for me. Context is king, and from the comments it seems pretty clear this was promoting real-world misogyny. Even if unintended, that's a good justification for youtube removing it.

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PostRe: YouTube shut down channel because of Read Dead video that shows murder of feminist
by Venom » Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:01 am

Sandy wrote:I would say that Rockstar are complict in this as well. Even in the early 1900s people wouldn't just stand by and watch someone murdering someone in the steet.


I’m not going to lie but I’m actually shocked that you have posted seem to be in favour of such bans - and before anyone starts polishing their pitchfork no I don’t hate feminists!

It’s just that games are not the real world, and to start punishing for others for what they do in game sets a very dangerous precedent.

As Sandy points out, Rockstar gave the public the playground, so should they now start to restrict what can be done in it?

Games are a medium that is mostly, fictional, killing. Bethesda don’t allow killing of child characters in their games for reasons of taste. But should Rockstar do the same with the feminists? But also, some people are racist - should developers prevent the killing of people of colour?

What this YouTuber did, i know it’s not nice, to many, but for many others it is harmless humour. Because there are people who are offended is that really enough reason to start asking for censorship of game features and the punishment of people who play a game differently from you?

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PostRe: YouTube shut down channel because of Read Dead video that shows murder of feminist
by captain red dog » Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:15 am

I think this was clearly a joke, no intent was there to commit a hate crime.

Simon Miller has a video up where he goes on a massive shooting spree. In light of the (constant) recent events in the US, you could argue that's equally offensive.

But of course, this is a video game in a sandbox world. None of it is real, no feminists were actually punched and fed to alligators. If you ban that video, then you should be banning all the other RDR videos that have extreme graphic violence. It is a violent game, age restrict videos of it and that should be all that's required.


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