Where Mario Kart Went Wrong

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Tomous
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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by Tomous » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:28 pm

Karl wrote:I'm not sure I really 'get' Peon's thoughts on MK's art style.

But I do agree that Diddy Kong Racing had a fantastic single-player and was a great game. I would be cool to have a spiritual sequel to it, to give us a modern experience like that.


I think single player is the big thing Mario Kart has to improve on next iteration, but I've love a spiritual sequel to DKR, based around the Kong's (rather than the Rare characters that they now own I believe).

Would make a good filler between the DX version of 8 and the inevitable 9.

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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by Tomous » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:28 pm

Edit: double post

Last edited by Tomous on Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by Green Gecko » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:44 pm

Rare don't own the DK "extra" characters, they are Nintendo's product as they were produced under contract with them. It's a common belief that Miyamoto has just never liked them because Rare went off and made 2 DK Country sequels without his character in them and their bastard children instead. But they've featured in all sorts of places like DKC: Returns and Smash.

Diddy is a rubbish character anyway.

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Tomous
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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by Tomous » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:54 pm

Green Gecko wrote:Rare don't own the DK "extra" characters, they are Nintendo's product as they were produced under contract with them. It's a common belief that Miyamoto has just never liked them because Rare went off and made 2 DK Country sequels without his character in them and their bastard children instead. But they've featured in all sorts of places like DKC: Returns and Smash.

Diddy is a rubbish character anyway.



I meant the extra Diddy Kong Racing characters like Banjo, Conker etc, who they do own. Sorry, I can see that wasn't clear in my post.

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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by Green Gecko » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:59 pm

Ah yes you said the Kongs. Yeah, it's a misconception out there that for some reason Rare own Diddy Kong, Candy Kong etc. So the game would work fine with that family of characters.

In fact the mythical Donkey Kong Racing was in development for GameCube. I have video proof on VHS. :cool:

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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by Tomous » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:01 pm

Green Gecko wrote:Ah yes you said the Kongs. Yeah, it's a misconception out there that for some reason Rare own Diddy Kong, Candy Kong etc. So the game would work fine with that family of characters.

In fact the mythical Donkey Kong Racing was in development for GameCube. I have video proof on VHS. :cool:


Yes what I was trying to say is in a DKR2 you could replace the Rare supporting cast in Diddy Kong Racing (who Nintendo don't own) with the cast of Kongs (who Nintendo do own).

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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by Hyperion » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:09 pm

Jezo wrote:
Pedz wrote:
Jezo wrote:
Hyperion wrote:
Jezo wrote:
Hyperion wrote:
Jezo wrote:
Hyperion wrote:
The Watching Artist wrote:Deluxe


True dat

But Deluxe is way way better than vanilla 8. If anything, you'd say Mario Kart went wrong at 8, surely?


Lol no

You think vanilla 8 is better than Deluxe?


I think 8 is better than 8 Deluxe, yes

why

For me, the double items make it worse, it's just a complete clusterfuck.

It's not much different from normal Mario Kart, holding an item out behind you and getting a 2nd item. Unless you think the item system has always been a clusterfuck in Mario Kart. If that's the case then fair enough lol.


Yes, but you couldn't do that in 8 and it upsets the balance and as Pedz and Matt have said it can cause a clusterfuck and people autopiloting up the rankings at the end.

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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by Jezo » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:13 pm

The Watching Artist wrote:
Pedz wrote:
Jezo wrote:
Hyperion wrote:
Jezo wrote:
Hyperion wrote:
Jezo wrote:
Hyperion wrote:
The Watching Artist wrote:Deluxe


True dat

But Deluxe is way way better than vanilla 8. If anything, you'd say Mario Kart went wrong at 8, surely?


Lol no

You think vanilla 8 is better than Deluxe?


I think 8 is better than 8 Deluxe, yes

why


For me, the double items make it worse, it's just a complete clusterfuck.

My comment was partly in jest because I don't have it. But firstly I still think it's disappointing that it's just a GOTY type release. Not adding new tracks was a serious bummer for me. But I also agree with Pedz from my, admittedly limited experience, that double items has maybe a negative effect. I've seen some amazing things happen but I think when a person can be in last place with half a lap to go. Get a bullet bill and something else like a star or lightning and win by practically auto pilotting to the line something is a bit wrong. I felt it was wonderully balanced before. Ok it could still be strawberry floating annoying seeing people in front get better gooseberry fool then you but deep down you know your the one getting an advantage somewhen else. It looks like you spend even less time racing and more time dealing with items. Sure there is skill in using them but its still too dominant for my liking.

I also really like the customisation things. It brings a whole new element of personality to the series and frees you from being a slave to character stats. What to be a fat cheating banana split but struggle to turn him? Go for a more mobile but slower option. Want to be the cute baby but get smashed about a lot? Pick heavy tires and karts to counter it. It isn't rocket science.

Toads Turnpike is strawberry floating gooseberry fool fullstop.


Technically speaking though, as with all racing games, there's always going to be an optimal path for each course, and in Mario Kart's case also, an optimal combination of character and kart. Without items/power-ups/fluctuation, racing games are rather deterministic in their design. When it comes to balance and what's fair, I 100% agree on the items are gooseberry fool front. It's not fun for me to be cucked of my win because other players weren't good enough to keep up with me, only for those same players to then get lucky and get enough items to overwhelm me entirely beyond the restraints of the game. 2nd place can get 3 red shells you know? 3. There's only 1 player ahead and they felt 3 red shells was a fair option for 2nd place to have. Having said that though, I think item distribution isn't only dependent on placement, but also on distance between the players. I've seen people in 2nd or 3rd get bullet bills after being so far ahead in 1st.

But anyway, as people have said before, this isn't a fighting game, it's a racing game, where the end goal is set regardless of player interaction. Your goal isn't to defeat your opponent as such, but to reach this set goal post as fast as possible. So the game in its purest form is essentially just time trial. If you assume every player knows the optimal combination and path for every course then only a random factor will actually mix it up to make it even remotely challenging or entertaining. I think Mario Kart is a fun game, but it is not fun from a competitive perspective.

As for Deluxe being a GOTY edition, it actually does improve on the original a lot. Unlike Wii where every character was unique thanks to hidden stats, even with hidden stats, a lot of characters in 8/DX are actually exactly the same gameplay wise. They come under different weight classes where each character in the same class has the exact same stats. You can imagine it like a character in a fighting game just having multiple skins. Same character, but looks different. In vanilla 8, there were 7 weight classes, and with DLC, 9 weight classes. For example, Bowser, Wario, Morton and Dry Bowser all have the exact same stats and play the same. However, in DX, there are 16 weight classes, Dry Bowser and Wario are now in their own weight class below Bowser and Morton. Looking at it like a fighting game, DX basically adds 7 more characters to the game from the original+DLC. Aside from stats though, the characters do have different models, so even though Wario and Dry Bowser are the same, Dry Bowser will hit his head more on ceilings, etc. As you already said, DX adds double items, but it also adds pink drifts. I feel these do actually compliment the game and make it better but that's just me.

And yes, Toad's Turnpike is strawberry floating gooseberry fool.

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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by Suffocate Peon » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:42 pm

Can people elaborate on why Toad's Turnpike is gooseberry fool.

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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by Suffocate Peon » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:43 pm

Green Gecko wrote:In fact the mythical Donkey Kong Racing was in development for GameCube. I have video proof on VHS. :cool:


Is this true? The first bit...and then, yeah, I'll ask, the second bit. I mean, I don't know.

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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by Evil Ted » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:52 pm

Suffocate Peon wrote:
Green Gecko wrote:In fact the mythical Donkey Kong Racing was in development for GameCube. I have video proof on VHS. :cool:


Is this true? The first bit...and then, yeah, I'll ask, the second bit. I mean, I don't know.

I also have the VHS with Donkey Kong Racing on it.

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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by Trelliz » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:52 pm

Jezo wrote:But anyway, as people have said before, this isn't a fighting game, it's a racing game, where the end goal is set regardless of player interaction. Your goal isn't to defeat your opponent as such, but to reach this set goal post as fast as possible. So the game in its purest form is essentially just time trial. If you assume every player knows the optimal combination and path for every course then only a random factor will actually mix it up to make it even remotely challenging or entertaining.


Ad7 wrote:.

False wrote:.


Paging other gr racers to the thread as I can't rebutt this on my own.

What you're describing is Trackmania, but that is far from representative and missing a lot about what makes racing so much more, regardless of how bad I might be at them, in the same way that saying Zelda is a walking simulator.

Also Sonic All-Stars Racing Transformed is better than MK.

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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by Pedz » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:55 pm

Suffocate Peon wrote:Can people elaborate on why Toad's Turnpike is gooseberry fool.

Very basic, but a short reason.

I think back to the N64 version of this and thinking I used to like it, am I thinking of a different track? Have they changed something? Or was I just wrong? The track is uninspiring, and the traffic is pointless. It very rarely hinders how you play, so it's just there. You'd think the traffic would make you think on your feet to weave in and out of it to get to the top, but the track doesn't do that, cars and trucks are basically scenery.

Also, Turds Subway is gooseberry fool too.

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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by The Watching Artist » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:04 pm

Suffocate Peon wrote:Can people elaborate on why Toad's Turnpike is gooseberry fool.

Because its incredibly dull. I'm more entertained by watching my washing spin around.
Jezo wrote:I 100% agree on the items are gooseberry fool front.

Thats not what I said though. Items and the RNG are a vital part of MK. I wouldn't have it any other way, although it would be cool to turn them off from time to time. But in Deluxe the sheer constant stream of them really harms the flow and limits the wheel to wheel action. 12 players (something people tend to overlook) plus double items. Madness.
Suffocate Peon wrote:
Green Gecko wrote:In fact the mythical Donkey Kong Racing was in development for GameCube. I have video proof on VHS. :cool:


Is this true? The first bit...and then, yeah, I'll ask, the second bit. I mean, I don't know.


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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by Green Gecko » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:06 pm

I feel like part of a secret club.

Having said that I don't know where it is, which sucks..

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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by Evil Ted » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:08 pm

Green Gecko wrote:I feel like part of a secret club.

Having said that I don't know where it is, which sucks..

Can't be hard to miss. It's bright orange. (I think it was, anyway.)

I just googled it and it's on YouTube though.

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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by Green Gecko » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:09 pm

Indeed it was :lol:

You didn't get many of those either, even in the 90s.

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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by Evil Ted » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:12 pm

I still have the one that came with the first issue of CUBE Magazine somewhere, too. Funny how both NGC and CUBE released VHSes in the same month...

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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by Green Gecko » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:17 pm

Cube were a bit edgelord but a nice alternative.. I only picked up the first few issues though as I was nuts about GC, 3 Nintendo mags was a bit too much.

Eventually retired NOM if I'm honest, it was so obviously biased and lacked its own identity. It felt issued from NoE with its notoriously flat PR and, well, it probably was. Which is why I joined Gamesradar and, well, here I am paying the bills 15 years later for some reason.

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PostRe: Where Mario Kart Went Wrong
by Suffocate Peon » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:29 pm

Karl wrote:I'm not sure I really 'get' Peon's thoughts on MK's art style.


I don't know how many times I've used variations on 'glitz', 'gloss', 'sheen' by now. It's like with F-Zero X vs GX. i prefer X's dry, sterile stark visuals, I think they're more evocative, more in tune with the 2D pixel original. I think F-Zero X is the best racer ever, and very much attains a purity i love, how it concentrates on being insanely quick with little course clutter, so streamlined. I dislike most 3D I guess, i find them ugly. I still love GX, but it was years later i realised how right F-Zero X got it. It was more clear you were racing above a city, GX had you racing in cities more often. With Wipeout, it was the rocky mountains of an alien landscape, then as you reach the start line you see the crowd again. It's this idea of this separate-from-reality racing series that citizens watch in the comfort of their home. They are travelling at obscene speeds, it makes sense to build tracks in deserts. Designers didn't have a choice but to do it this way in the 90s, but by the mid 00s when Wipeout returned they placed tracks in metropolis'. Extreme 3 actually marked the change as well. Tracks built above water, more of a real world vibe, blander colour palette.

F-Zero X had these yellow lights at the edge of the track, a pink sky, and barely visible futuristic looking skyscrapers in the distance, it's more Roger Dean I guess.


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