Tories plan credit card checks for porn websites from next year

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Moggy
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PostRe: Tories plan credit card checks for porn websites from next year
by Moggy » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:09 pm

KK wrote:Not to get all yanky conspiracy theory on yo ass, but I'm sure many people probably think this has nothing to do with blocking porn at all, and rather something more sinister, either from the government or the porn websites themselves (with most being controlled by just 3 or 4 companies, 1 of which is apparently in favour of the move). Getting people's details is the holy grail from everybody. This is just another means by which to track what you're up to.

But as we've seen with everyone from Sony to Ashley Madison, any sort of database or log is great for hackers and blackmailers...

What could possibly go wrong.


Don't be silly, we will still be protected by the human rights act....

...oh yeah. :dread:
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PostRe: Tories plan credit card checks for porn websites from next year
by Meep » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:39 pm

The only impact of this would seem to be to make it impractical to host a porn site in the UK, seeing as they have no power to legislate for anywhere else.
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PostRe: Tories plan credit card checks for porn websites from next year
by Jenuall » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:59 pm

Errkal wrote:It is the parent's job to stop their kids looking at cocks and vag not the governments.


Hmm... Where does one draw the line?

"It's the parents job to stop their kids buying knives not the governments"?

"It's the parents job to stop their kids buying alcohol not the governments"?

Smoking, drugs, chemicals? Just let the parents police it?

Society works when we accept and agree what is harmful to children (and indeed to adults) and take collective steps to limit or prevent exposure to it. Research has shown that kids being exposed to porn is A Bad Thing - it harms their education and their personal and social development, and it's the responsibility of a mature society to respond to that. This is not necessarily the best solution but to do nothing would be to betray those coming after us ... No pun intended :P
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PostRe: Tories plan credit card checks for porn websites from next year
by rinks » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:06 pm

My nephew had free access to my sister's credit cards from the age of about 11. I think a more proactive form of age verification is called for. Maybe require users to activate their devices' cameras, so admin staff can check they look old enough.
This is the death of intelligence
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PostRe: Tories plan credit card checks for porn websites from next year
by Gemini73 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:47 pm

2017 - politicians' still don't know how the internet works.

:lol:
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PostRe: Tories plan credit card checks for porn websites from next year
by Squinty » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:56 pm

Yeah, good luck with this.
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PostRe: Tories plan credit card checks for porn websites from next year
by JediDragon05 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:40 pm

Jog on you rich halfwits.

Fight me.
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PostRe: Tories plan credit card checks for porn websites from next year
by Karl » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:21 pm

Jenuall wrote:
Errkal wrote:It is the parent's job to stop their kids looking at cocks and vag not the governments.


Hmm... Where does one draw the line?

"It's the parents job to stop their kids buying knives not the governments"?

"It's the parents job to stop their kids buying alcohol not the governments"?

Smoking, drugs, chemicals? Just let the parents police it?

Society works when we accept and agree what is harmful to children (and indeed to adults) and take collective steps to limit or prevent exposure to it. Research has shown that kids being exposed to porn is A Bad Thing - it harms their education and their personal and social development, and it's the responsibility of a mature society to respond to that. This is not necessarily the best solution but to do nothing would be to betray those coming after us ... No pun intended :P


Sure, and it's already a crime to sell pornography to children in a pornography shop, just as it's a crime to sell knives, cigarettes, or alcohol to children in a supermarket. I presume there is even a legal burden on Internet cafe owners to ensure their services are used appropriately by minors. These responsibilities are placed on the community while the child is out in public, where they are in at least partial care of that community.

At home, the burden of responsibility is placed on the parent to ensure their child does not hurt themselves with knives in the kitchen, or get cigarettes out of a drawer and smoke them, or drink alcohol from the cabinet. If a young child were found to be shanking his playmates, or starting a 20-a-day habit, or getting riggity riggity wrecked son, then that is a different kind of crime: neglect. Just as in those cases, when it comes to the Internet connection - yes, you guessed it! - it is the parent's responsibility to ensure the PC or their child's smartphone isn't used to access inappropriate material. (And if the child's psyche were damaged from accessing that material, then the parent has clearly failed in their duty and has acted neglectfully.)

Luckily, it literally could not be easier for a parent to make it difficult for a young child to 'happen upon' pornography. The ISP content filter is opt-out -- it's turned on by default, for goodness' sake! And there are so many parental control softwares out there -- anyone with even a passing interest in engaging with their child's use of the Internet could set one up!

There is no need for the state to get involved. Current solutions would be more than sufficient if parents were even slightly switched-on, and by the time a kid turns into a teenager and begins actively attempting to subvert the filters you'll never stop them anyway. (Does anyone really care if a 16 year old browses Pornhub? I suspect only maniacal, Lovejoyian conservatives. I masturbated when I was 16 and so did all of you.)

Even if it were reasonable to expect the state to step in - it isn't, and you're mind-bogglingly wrong if you think it is, but ho hum - there is another important difference between ID laws in a shop and ID laws online. Greasy Eggbert behind the counter at the Discount Fisting Videos Emporium is unlikely to memorise your full name in the two seconds he spends checking your driver's license, and functionally you betray your privacy no more than you did by simply stepping into the shop. It's a reasonable measure. Online, by enforcing a credit card gate, you encourage people to leave a digital paper-trail linking them to pornography, which will at some point be exploited by blackmailers; you also encourage the practice of entering card details into random shady websites, which will increase the incidence of card fraud. I use 'will' there because it has happened before and it is obvious to anyone who knows anything about the Internet that it will happen again.

Oh, and owning a physical shop is a large commitment with legal and bureaucratic overhead - not to mention clear geographic jurisdiction - that makes it far easier to enforce laws about what shopkeepers should and should not do. It is literally impossible to tell 'the Internet' to do something.

The entire set-up is stupid and anyone who supports it is at best deeply ignorant.
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PostRe: Tories plan credit card checks for porn websites from next year
by Garth » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:17 am

Didn't they already bring in porn filters? This is a waste of time and money.
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PostRe: Tories plan credit card checks for porn websites from next year
by Squinty » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:24 am

Garth wrote:Didn't they already bring in porn filters? This is a waste of time and money.


We send 350 million to the EU every week, let's invest that in invasive porn blocking measures.
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PostRe: Tories plan credit card checks for porn websites from next year
by Moggy » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:56 am

There is more than one type of child when we are talking about this sort of thing.

Little children (babies, toddlers, primary school, etc) should of course be protected from viewing unsuitable content, whether that's sexual or violent (or both ;) ). This is parental responsibility, no 5 year old should be left alone on the internet unsupervised.

Older children (teenagers) are more difficult. They will be gaming online, have their own tablets/laptops/phones and will have long periods of unsupervised time by themselves. They will also be savvy enough (or have friends who are savvy enough) to get around any porn blocks or age verification checks. It's a pointless waste of time to create laws like this as they will find a way to view what they want to view.

All these laws will do is inconvenience people.
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PostRe: Tories plan credit card checks for porn websites from next year
by Somebody Else's Problem » Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:28 pm

I don't have a credit card, nor do I want one.
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PostRe: Tories plan credit card checks for porn websites from next year
by Green Gecko » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:10 pm

Well I just got decent VPN access for a year for £5 from Humble Bundle. I can download a gig of video from a private tracker, totally anonymously, in 12 minutes (like the good old days). There's no way a a teenager could figure out how to do that. To install an app and press an "on" switch. No way. Just unthinkable intelligence for a braindead 12 year old to muster such measures. Just like how I read the code for Nintendo.com and taught myself to build websites when I was 11. Just like how everyone I knew with a computer was using Napster, Limewire and eDonkey to get whatever they wanted (complete with harmful malware and viruses). Clearly I had teh super brains, not like these gormless little twats.
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PostRe: Tories plan credit card checks for porn websites from next year
by Rightey » Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:20 pm

Karl wrote: I masturbated when I was 16 and so did all of you.


And look where we ended up :(

No more lost generations!

Also, is it really illegal to sell knives to kids in the UK? Lol what a country.
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PostRe: Tories plan credit card checks for porn websites from next year
by Alvin Flummux » Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:24 pm

There's no reason a child should own a knife.
Jupiter is in your sun sign this week, making it pretty crowded in there, what with Jupiter being the largest of the planets and all.
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PostRe: Tories plan credit card checks for porn websites from next year
by KK » Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:53 pm

Never mind about knives, kids these days have moved on (back) to throwing acid at people...
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PostRe: Tories plan credit card checks for porn websites from next year
by Jenuall » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:50 pm

Karl wrote:
Jenuall wrote:
Errkal wrote:It is the parent's job to stop their kids looking at cocks and vag not the governments.


Hmm... Where does one draw the line?

"It's the parents job to stop their kids buying knives not the governments"?

"It's the parents job to stop their kids buying alcohol not the governments"?

Smoking, drugs, chemicals? Just let the parents police it?

Society works when we accept and agree what is harmful to children (and indeed to adults) and take collective steps to limit or prevent exposure to it. Research has shown that kids being exposed to porn is A Bad Thing - it harms their education and their personal and social development, and it's the responsibility of a mature society to respond to that. This is not necessarily the best solution but to do nothing would be to betray those coming after us ... No pun intended :P


Sure, and it's already a crime to sell pornography to children in a pornography shop, just as it's a crime to sell knives, cigarettes, or alcohol to children in a supermarket. I presume there is even a legal burden on Internet cafe owners to ensure their services are used appropriately by minors. These responsibilities are placed on the community while the child is out in public, where they are in at least partial care of that community.

At home, the burden of responsibility is placed on the parent to ensure their child does not hurt themselves with knives in the kitchen, or get cigarettes out of a drawer and smoke them, or drink alcohol from the cabinet. If a young child were found to be shanking his playmates, or starting a 20-a-day habit, or getting riggity riggity wrecked son, then that is a different kind of crime: neglect. Just as in those cases, when it comes to the Internet connection - yes, you guessed it! - it is the parent's responsibility to ensure the PC or their child's smartphone isn't used to access inappropriate material. (And if the child's psyche were damaged from accessing that material, then the parent has clearly failed in their duty and has acted neglectfully.)

Luckily, it literally could not be easier for a parent to make it difficult for a young child to 'happen upon' pornography. The ISP content filter is opt-out -- it's turned on by default, for goodness' sake! And there are so many parental control softwares out there -- anyone with even a passing interest in engaging with their child's use of the Internet could set one up!

There is no need for the state to get involved. Current solutions would be more than sufficient if parents were even slightly switched-on, and by the time a kid turns into a teenager and begins actively attempting to subvert the filters you'll never stop them anyway. (Does anyone really care if a 16 year old browses Pornhub? I suspect only maniacal, Lovejoyian conservatives. I masturbated when I was 16 and so did all of you.)

Even if it were reasonable to expect the state to step in - it isn't, and you're mind-bogglingly wrong if you think it is, but ho hum - there is another important difference between ID laws in a shop and ID laws online. Greasy Eggbert behind the counter at the Discount Fisting Videos Emporium is unlikely to memorise your full name in the two seconds he spends checking your driver's license, and functionally you betray your privacy no more than you did by simply stepping into the shop. It's a reasonable measure. Online, by enforcing a credit card gate, you encourage people to leave a digital paper-trail linking them to pornography, which will at some point be exploited by blackmailers; you also encourage the practice of entering card details into random shady websites, which will increase the incidence of card fraud. I use 'will' there because it has happened before and it is obvious to anyone who knows anything about the Internet that it will happen again.

Oh, and owning a physical shop is a large commitment with legal and bureaucratic overhead - not to mention clear geographic jurisdiction - that makes it far easier to enforce laws about what shopkeepers should and should not do. It is literally impossible to tell 'the Internet' to do something.

The entire set-up is stupid and anyone who supports it is at best deeply ignorant.


So because we live in a world where there is a new delivery mechanism for this material we should drop any attempt to regulate it? Why - because it is difficult?

Obviously knives, alcohol etc. can only ever exist as physical objects, and additionally are not available for free - therefore their purchase can be suitably regulated at a point of sale, either online or in a real world shop. Internet porn is almost universally free and is virtual therefore nobody has to physically purchase the item and deliver it to the owner - any existing patterns of regulation must therefore be re-assessed.

For something like alcohol, knives or chemicals to be at risk of harming a child, or being used by a child to cause harm to others, then the responsible owner of them needs to have been neglectful in how they store and control access to those objects. The same cannot be said for the internet, there is an overwhelming array of information at the fingertips of anyone who touches the internet, child or adult, and there is no online equivalent of the locked drinks cabinet for the internet. As a parent I can take measures to ensure the safety of my children with respect to things like drugs or alcohol within the home, short of only allowing them to access the internet whilst I am watching them I cannot do this for their online life.

I have implemented as many controls and restrictions as possible at home - it simply is not possible to stop access to harmful content. My daughter should be able to watch videos on the YouTube kids app without accidentally stumbling onto videos of Anna and Elsa from Frozen taking it in turns to do each other with a strap on.

I took my kids to the local soft play recently where for whatever reason they ended up playing a series of songs of the PA system with extremely explicit lyrics. Obviously this was unacceptable and people complained - the soft play company accepted that they had done something wrong and offered people some money back or free food. If a shop sells something which is broken, or harmful, or illegal then they are held accountable for that. If the BBC or ITV broadcast an 18 rated film during the daytime, or started showing an instructional video on how to build a bomb during the cbeebies bedtime hour then they would be reprimanded. Why should an online shop or broadcaster be treated any differently?

As I said in my previous post - I don't think this is the right solution. But there is a problem here and it does need a suitable solution to be found. Like any new frontier the delivery of content on the internet cannot simply remain in a lawless state, it can't be good enough for an image or video site to be able to just shrug their shoulders and say "sorry mate - we just do distribution" when challenged on the content of the information they are making available.
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PostRe: Tories plan credit card checks for porn websites from next year
by Karl » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:12 pm

Jenuall wrote:So because we live in a world where there is a new delivery mechanism for this material we should drop any attempt to regulate it? Why - because it is difficult?

Obviously knives, alcohol etc. can only ever exist as physical objects, and additionally are not available for free - therefore their purchase can be suitably regulated at a point of sale, either online or in a real world shop. Internet porn is almost universally free and is virtual therefore nobody has to physically purchase the item and deliver it to the owner - any existing patterns of regulation must therefore be re-assessed.


It's about who has responsibility to a child in the moment they are attempting to access inappropriate material or dangerous objects. If a child is out in the community then immediate members of that community who are interacting with that child - shopkeepers, for example - are implicitly in a position of responsibility to that child, and certain legal obligations come with that. This isn't the case on the Internet, where the child's access should be controlled and moderated by their parents.

In an inherently anonymous medium, it's unreasonable to expect the owners of every website with a teenage-or-higher target audience - that's basically all of them - to go to extraordinary lengths to verify the real-life identity of every visitor.


Jenuall wrote:I have implemented as many controls and restrictions as possible at home - it simply is not possible to stop access to harmful content. My daughter should be able to watch videos on the YouTube kids app without accidentally stumbling onto videos of Anna and Elsa from Frozen taking it in turns to do each other with a strap on.


I might suggest your real problem appears to be with online broadcasters who advertise themselves as 'for kids' showing explicit content. If so, sure: it would seem to me reasonable that there could be a legal responsibility on those content providers to curate the media stored and ensure no inappropriate content is shown. By contrast, actual porn sites aren't for kids, are easier to block automatically (I hear most of the large ones enter themselves voluntarily into parental controls databases), and are IMO far more difficult to 'stumble across accidentally', so they aren't relevant to this problem.

I'm sorry you've had negative experiences online with your daughter. I don't think placing additional legal burdens on the interaction between adults and porn websites actually helps in the scenario you outlined. I have no problems with more red tape and responsibilities for websites which explicitly advertise themselves as being 'for kids', but the responsibility to ensure a young child is only using those 'for kids' websites still rests with the parent, as they are the one providing access to the Internet in the first place.
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PostRe: Tories plan credit card checks for porn websites from next year
by Lagamorph » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:17 pm

Jenuall wrote:I have implemented as many controls and restrictions as possible at home - it simply is not possible to stop access to harmful content. My daughter should be able to watch videos on the YouTube kids app without accidentally stumbling onto videos of Anna and Elsa from Frozen taking it in turns to do each other with a strap on.

It's entirely possible though by simply supervising your childrens internet activity.
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PostRe: Tories plan credit card checks for porn websites from next year
by <]:^D » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:28 pm

not to say im firmly on either side but what does credit card website checks have to do with unmoderated pornography on youtube?

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