Brexit

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Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

Remain a member of the European Union
222
80%
Leave the European Union
57
20%
 
Total votes: 279
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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:42 pm

Lucien wrote:The one thing I wonder about Farage is, couldn't he join the Tory party? He'd have a decent chance of becoming the leader over time. Instead he's thinking of leading UKIP again.


He’s too extremist for the Tory party.

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lex-man
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PostRe: Brexit
by lex-man » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:02 pm

Lucien wrote:
Oblomov Boblomov wrote:
Moggy wrote:What I’d want to happen:

Scrap the whole stupid thing, tell the Leavers to strawberry float off and move towards a bright future.


Believe :datass:

The only issue with that is how do you deal with the 1/3? Unfortunately they wouldn't actually just strawberry float off.


If the Conservatives said tomorrow then they were going to act to keep us in the EU, they were ignoring the referendum etc, would you be ok with that?


Yup.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:17 pm

Lucien wrote:
Oblomov Boblomov wrote:
Moggy wrote:What I’d want to happen:

Scrap the whole stupid thing, tell the Leavers to strawberry float off and move towards a bright future.


Believe :datass:

The only issue with that is how do you deal with the 1/3? Unfortunately they wouldn't actually just strawberry float off.


If the Conservatives said tomorrow then they were going to act to keep us in the EU, they were ignoring the referendum etc, would you be ok with that?


Yep.

On what basis do I want to override democracy?

That wasn’t the question, you asked if I would be ok with it. It’s what I want, of course I’d be happy with it.

But there are arguments for it. The majority of the country didn’t vote for Brexit. Brexit will be economically harmful to the country. We have a representative democracy (most MPs are pro-Remain) not a direct democracy.

Having said that, the best solution (imo) would be a second referendum. Set out the post Brexit deal and then ask again if the country want that deal or whether they want to remain in the EU.

If you don’t want a second referendum when the country has been properly informed as to what Brexit would entail, then the question is on what basis do you not want democracy?

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lex-man
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PostRe: Brexit
by lex-man » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:25 pm

Lucien wrote:
Lucien wrote:
lex-man wrote:If the Conservatives said tomorrow then they were going to act to keep us in the EU, they were ignoring the referendum etc, would you be ok with that?


Yup.


On what basis do you want to override democracy then?


The reason that I believe it would be better for the country. Also it was a non legally binding referendum, the government was never under any obligation to do anything and the vote was incredibly close.

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DML
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PostRe: Brexit
by DML » Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:35 pm

If you ignore a referendum, it's not the death of democracy as much as lots would like to wish that. They are purely advisory and always will be.

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Karl
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PostRe: Brexit
by Karl » Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:47 pm

Lucien wrote:I don't want a second referendum. My basis for that is I would not support having any referendum that results in reducing a person's representation going forward.

:lol: That's very convenient. You won't let a person vote in their small, shitty democracy to become part of a larger, better democracy? Because you know better than them? Because you don't value their opinion? Because democracy isn't important to you unless it's implemented the way that fits your 'vision'? Maybe we should just scrap the whole thing and let Fuhrer Lucien make all the decisions about everything.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit
by Moggy » Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:47 pm

Lucien wrote:I don't want a second referendum. My basis for that is I would not support having any referendum that results in reducing a person's representation going forward.


Ahh there we go. You love direct democracy when it goes your way, but are not prepared to trust it once it might go against you.

“No no no Moggy, it’s for the plebs own good! What if they voted for what I consider less representation!”.

Hypocrite.

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lex-man
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PostRe: Brexit
by lex-man » Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:48 pm

Lucien wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Lucien wrote:
Oblomov Boblomov wrote:
Moggy wrote:What I’d want to happen:

Scrap the whole stupid thing, tell the Leavers to strawberry float off and move towards a bright future.


Believe :datass:

The only issue with that is how do you deal with the 1/3? Unfortunately they wouldn't actually just strawberry float off.


If the Conservatives said tomorrow then they were going to act to keep us in the EU, they were ignoring the referendum etc, would you be ok with that?


Yep.

On what basis do I want to override democracy?

That wasn’t the question, you asked if I would be ok with it. It’s what I want, of course I’d be happy with it.


If I was a Remain voter and the question I posed to you was posed to me, I'd not be ok with it. So it naturally leads to my second question of why you'd be ok with it.

Moggy wrote:But there are arguments for it. The majority of the country didn’t vote for Brexit. Brexit will be economically harmful to the country. We have a representative democracy (most MPs are pro-Remain) not a direct democracy.


The majority of active voters did. The effect to the economy doesn't matter so far as democracy goes. The last point has merit; but if MPs represent their constituents they should back the way their constituents voted in the referendum, imo. I imagine you'll disagree there and say if a pro-EU MP was elected in an area, he should back staying in the EU -- is that your position? I'm just curious.

Moggy wrote:Having said that, the best solution (imo) would be a second referendum. Set out the post Brexit deal and then ask again if the country want that deal or whether they want to remain in the EU.

If you don’t want a second referendum when the country has been properly informed as to what Brexit would entail, then the question is on what basis do you not want democracy?


I don't want a second referendum. My basis for that is I would not support having any referendum that results in reducing a person's representation going forward.


Why would a second referendum reduce anybodies representation, they would be able to vote to leave the EU again.

I think one of the things the majority of people care about is the economy. Most people will be happy if they can get a descent job that pays well so they can support a family. A lot of people were tricked into thinking that leaving the EU would help create that situation. I remember reading a post referendum comments section in the Daily Mail where a number of leave voters was fuming that the value of the pound had collapsed and it looked like things were going to get worse, they pointed out that they had been told things would get better.

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Karl
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PostRe: Brexit
by Karl » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:06 pm

Lucien wrote:Karl, you don't want referendums at all. If I'm Fuhrer Lucien (really poor of you to say that, btw) what does that make you?

I'm not the one on trial here as I don't pretend to be a champion of democracy. I would happily scrap democracy if a better system came along (like letting a benevolent, neutral AI decide everything). The point of my post was only to point out your hypocrisy.

If you're interested in my views, I like larger and more 'representative' (i.e. less direct) democracies specifically because they limit the impact any one particular idiot can have and often end up with the real power being in the hands of committees of smart people. 'The people' need to have enough power to replace governments they don't like or find ineffective, and to set the general philosophy/direction of the governance, but ideally no more than that.

(I was being deliberately OTT when I said Fuhrer, I didn't mean to upset you. I should have put a winky face there. My bad.)

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lex-man
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PostRe: Brexit
by lex-man » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:17 pm

By Lucien's argument shouldn't we being trying to break up the UK in to small voting blocks. Why doesn't London, Manchester, Birmingham and Sheffield all become their own independent states that way people are far better represented in their local states.

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Karl
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PostRe: Brexit
by Karl » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:32 pm

Lucien wrote:Can you point out the hypocrisy I committed?


You believe in the will of the people until they choose to construct a democratic system that you dislike. Then you want to force your will on them.

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Karl
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PostRe: Brexit
by Karl » Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:02 am

Would you allow a referendum on loosening immigration rules? Wouldn't people's votes count for less if there were more citizens?

Would you allow a referendum on joining any international collaboration that has the 'power' to set or fix rules in your country? Is the UN an evil load of big bullies?

Are you against international courts 'interfering' with our fantastic local democracy? Even the ones to do with human rights?

If the Isle of Man wanted to become a county of England - maybe for very solid economic or social reasons, I don't know - should we block that because it would make our glorious British votes count for slightly less?

Why isn't it enough that Parliament can just refuse to implement any EU law that is actually unpopular / abusive, at the cost of our EU membership being suspended? If something bad enough to leave over happened we would leave at that time.

You've picked such a bizarre and arbitrary hill to fight on. I believe that in your head right now it's an inviolable moral principle - i.e. you aren't lying about your views - I just think your views would be so different if it didn't involve the EU.

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DML
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PostRe: Brexit
by DML » Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:13 am

EDIT - can't be arsed.

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Hyperion
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PostRe: Brexit
by Hyperion » Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:31 am

How far do you want this smaller governments, direct democracy to go, because that way lies anarchy

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Hexx
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PostRe: Brexit
by Hexx » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:19 am

At least we have a strong well led opposition to try and stop this nonsense...

Corbyn suggested he was opposed to the UK staying in the EU single market permanently because that could stop Labour implementing its policies. (See 10.15am.) When asked for an example, he said that the government claimed EU state aide rules stopped it intervening to protect the Redcar steelworks. But Corbyn also admitted that Labour argued otherwise at the time, and that state aid rules were not enforced consistently by EU member states.


Oh...

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Lagamorph
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PostRe: Brexit
by Lagamorph » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:27 am

Nobody should be even remotely surprised at that.

Lagamorph's Underwater Photography Thread
Zellery wrote:Good post Lagamorph.
Turboman wrote:Lagomorph..... Is ..... Right
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Meep
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Location: Belfast

PostRe: Brexit
by Meep » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:30 am

You know that feeling when you arrive at a seriously far gone house party sober and you are the only one contemplating the massive mess that will have to cleared up in the morning? That's what watching UK politics feels like now.

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Denster
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PostRe: Brexit
by Denster » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:33 am

Hexx. Let's not focus on Corbyn. He's the leader of the opposition.
So what if he changes position according to public opinion, his friends in the Labour Party, the Unions or if the wind blows. He's not in power or making decisions. As I'm frequently told in here.

Let him carry on getting away with his antics. To be fair he's had nothing but a trashing from the media et al until he showed he could actually lead and campaign.

What we don't know is what he'd do if he could get his hands on power. But the beautiful thing is - neither does he.
I would actually be interested in seeing a Corbyn administration. In the way I was intrigued by Trump's winning. But it isn't happening.

:shifty:

Probably.

Hime wrote:This is nonsense, Photek finally posts something factual and he gets burned. ;)
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Denster
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PostRe: Brexit
by Denster » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:34 am

On a lighter note I chose between attending comic con or the Tory party conference next month.

The conference did not win.

Hime wrote:This is nonsense, Photek finally posts something factual and he gets burned. ;)
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Blue Eyes
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PostRe: Brexit
by Blue Eyes » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:36 am

strawberry float the leavers. Given the choice of a second referendum and just scrapping Brexit altogether I'd take the latter all day long. Let the leavers cry and I'll drink their strawberry floating teardrops while laughing maniacally. Democracy has failed us if this is the strawberry floating world we've ended up in. And scrapping this isn't even anti-democratic! It's just a referendum and a third of the electorate didn't vote! Just scrap it. Admit it's a waste of time and energy and it serves no good purpose.


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