The Politics Thread 4

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Moggy
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Moggy » Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:35 pm

Alvin Flummux wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Alvin Flummux wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Vermilion wrote:
Moggy wrote:I could probably come up with a number of things that Thatcher, Major, Blair, Brown and Cameron did that were either decent or competent.


I don't recall the unholy coalition trinity of Cameron/Clegg/Osborne ever doing anything that was either decent or competent.


Gay marriage.


That was inevitable no matter who was in office, surely?


Probably, but they were the ones who did it.


How much credit do they really deserve, though, if it was an inevitability?


They deserve the credit for actually doing it. Blair didn’t, Brown didn’t, Cameron/Clegg did.

Lots of things are inevitable eventually.

Slavery was always going to be banned eventually, but Wilberforce/Lincoln deserve credit for ending it.

Civil rights would have happened eventually but Martin Luther King deserves credit for his efforts.

The Nazis would have fallen eventually, but the UK/USA/Russia get the credit for stopping it.

The question was based on doing something decent and/or competent, not on doing something that would happen eventually.

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lex-man
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by lex-man » Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:50 pm

Grumpy David wrote:
Tafdolphin wrote:
Grumpy David wrote:In 2015, I was one of the 4 million that voted UKIP


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I have no idea what this means? Some new meme I'm unaware of?


I think it's a reference to Max Gammon, he's a councillor for UKIP.

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DML
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by DML » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:08 pm

Grumpy David wrote:
DML wrote:
Grumpy David wrote:
DML wrote:
Grumpy David wrote:It's reasonable to expect to see ID and Proof of Address to rent somewhere or get a new job or claim a pension.

But what a cock up for successive governments to never formalise the process and provide actual paperwork to prove that people arriving before 1971 when they had free movement from the commonwealth were then either naturalised or given indefinite leave to remain.

Home office requirements are so tough that from what I understand you needed to prove you lived in the UK for every individual year to qualify which would be tough even today, let alone before the digital era. I couldn't prove what primary school I attended as it's been turned into New Build Flats. Perhaps National Insurance records might help once someone turned 16 though?

Free passports for all affected and obviously compensation for those who might have been deported / lost their job / had state pension delayed is clearly necessary and appropriate to undo any financial loss.


You must realise your Leave vote contributed to this though? You voted for this government to enact these rules.


Non-EU immigration rules are completely separate to the EU/Brexit vote.

The government official position was to Remain. They spent 7 million sending out leaflets to remind us.

Your point would be stronger if it was "You voted for this government" but it's certainly possible to agree with some policies and disagree with others so even then it wouldn't be a particularly worthwhile thing to post.


So that largely immigration vote that happened has nothing to do with immigration? I call BS on that I'm afraid.

Your point of the governments position to remain makes even less sense.


We were always able to control immigration numbers from outside the EU.

The immigration argument was that we have no control over the quality or quantity of EU immigration.

They are separate points. Being in or out of the EU doesn't affect policy on non EU immigration.

You calling BS is irrelevant. You're wrong.

The official position of the government was to Remain but individual cabinet members were free to disagree and support the Leave campaign. You mentioned I voted for this government although the policies were introduced under the previous government which I didn't vote for.


Well clearly they are linked, otherwise this strawberry float up wouldn't have happened!

Your politics absolutely saddens me.

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Tafdolphin
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Tafdolphin » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:14 pm

lex-man wrote:
Grumpy David wrote:
Tafdolphin wrote:
Grumpy David wrote:In 2015, I was one of the 4 million that voted UKIP


Image


I have no idea what this means? Some new meme I'm unaware of?


I think it's a reference to Max Gammon, he's a councillor for UKIP.


Nope.

http://www.huckmagazine.com/perspective ... le-gammon/

A spectre is hanging over Britain, and that spectre has come to be known as “gammon”: older men who, despite having all the opportunities that baby boomers enjoyed, are confused and angry at the modern world. It’s a condition that once manifested itself as an affinity to UKIP, but now more so to high blood pressure and a red meat complexion.


Also:

https://twitter.com/@TheGammon

Gemini73 wrote:Yes your are a sanctimonious twat

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Alvin Flummux
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Alvin Flummux » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:42 pm

Moggy wrote:
Alvin Flummux wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Alvin Flummux wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Vermilion wrote:
Moggy wrote:I could probably come up with a number of things that Thatcher, Major, Blair, Brown and Cameron did that were either decent or competent.


I don't recall the unholy coalition trinity of Cameron/Clegg/Osborne ever doing anything that was either decent or competent.


Gay marriage.


That was inevitable no matter who was in office, surely?


Probably, but they were the ones who did it.


How much credit do they really deserve, though, if it was an inevitability?


They deserve the credit for actually doing it. Blair didn’t, Brown didn’t, Cameron/Clegg did.

Lots of things are inevitable eventually.

Slavery was always going to be banned eventually, but Wilberforce/Lincoln deserve credit for ending it.

Civil rights would have happened eventually but Martin Luther King deserves credit for his efforts.

The Nazis would have fallen eventually, but the UK/USA/Russia get the credit for stopping it.

The question was based on doing something decent and/or competent, not on doing something that would happen eventually.


I bow to your greater knowledge, though it feels wrong to credit the Tories for any progressive breakthroughs.

Send me a postcard when you get to where you're going...
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KK
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by KK » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:45 pm







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lex-man
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by lex-man » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:02 pm

Moggy wrote:
Alvin Flummux wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Alvin Flummux wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Vermilion wrote:
Moggy wrote:I could probably come up with a number of things that Thatcher, Major, Blair, Brown and Cameron did that were either decent or competent.


I don't recall the unholy coalition trinity of Cameron/Clegg/Osborne ever doing anything that was either decent or competent.


Gay marriage.


That was inevitable no matter who was in office, surely?


Probably, but they were the ones who did it.


How much credit do they really deserve, though, if it was an inevitability?


They deserve the credit for actually doing it. Blair didn’t, Brown didn’t, Cameron/Clegg did.

Lots of things are inevitable eventually.

Slavery was always going to be banned eventually, but Wilberforce/Lincoln deserve credit for ending it.

Civil rights would have happened eventually but Martin Luther King deserves credit for his efforts.

The Nazis would have fallen eventually, but the UK/USA/Russia get the credit for stopping it.

The question was based on doing something decent and/or competent, not on doing something that would happen eventually.


Arguably the Labour party under Blair probably deserve some credit for their work in normalizing homosexuality and lowering the age of consent.

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Moggy
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Moggy » Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:28 am

lex-man wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Alvin Flummux wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Alvin Flummux wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Vermilion wrote:
Moggy wrote:I could probably come up with a number of things that Thatcher, Major, Blair, Brown and Cameron did that were either decent or competent.


I don't recall the unholy coalition trinity of Cameron/Clegg/Osborne ever doing anything that was either decent or competent.


Gay marriage.


That was inevitable no matter who was in office, surely?


Probably, but they were the ones who did it.


How much credit do they really deserve, though, if it was an inevitability?


They deserve the credit for actually doing it. Blair didn’t, Brown didn’t, Cameron/Clegg did.

Lots of things are inevitable eventually.

Slavery was always going to be banned eventually, but Wilberforce/Lincoln deserve credit for ending it.

Civil rights would have happened eventually but Martin Luther King deserves credit for his efforts.

The Nazis would have fallen eventually, but the UK/USA/Russia get the credit for stopping it.

The question was based on doing something decent and/or competent, not on doing something that would happen eventually.


Arguably the Labour party under Blair probably deserve some credit for their work in normalizing homosexuality and lowering the age of consent.


Who said they didn’t? They also brought in civil partnerships. But they didn’t bring any in full equality in marriage.

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Moggy
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Moggy » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:52 am

Galloway tries to join UKIP.



:fp:

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Errkal
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Errkal » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:18 am

It's like the channel tunnel outrage ! We fought them in 1756 and now there is a strawberry floating tunnel linking us!

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Moggy
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Moggy » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:23 am

Errkal wrote:It's like the channel tunnel outrage ! We fought them in 1756 and now there is a strawberry floating tunnel linking us!


Exactly, Napoleon built the tunnel so that Romanians could walk here and steal our Caribbean community. :x

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Karl
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Karl » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:46 am

People who voted UKIP and Leave voted for racism, even if they themselves are not racist.

Voting for Mussolini to get the trains running on time doesn't make you a fascist, but it does make you partially responsible for the rise of fascism.

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Moggy
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Moggy » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:48 am

Karl wrote:People who voted UKIP and Leave voted for racism, even if they themselves are not racist.

Voting for Mussolini to get the trains running on time doesn't make you a fascist, but it does make you partially responsible for the rise of fascism.


Yes but they lived in an area where Mussolini’s party wouldn’t win the constituency so it’s not their fault and they could freely vote for him with no guilt.

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Karl
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Karl » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:56 am

Moggy wrote:
Karl wrote:People who voted UKIP and Leave voted for racism, even if they themselves are not racist.

Voting for Mussolini to get the trains running on time doesn't make you a fascist, but it does make you partially responsible for the rise of fascism.


Yes but they lived in an area where Mussolini’s party wouldn’t win the constituency so it’s not their fault and they could freely vote for him with no guilt.


My favourite is "I just wanted to leave the EU, not all the other stuff!"

It's like saying "I just wanted to drive fast while drunk, I didn't intend to run someone over."

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Moggy
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Moggy » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:59 am

Karl wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Karl wrote:People who voted UKIP and Leave voted for racism, even if they themselves are not racist.

Voting for Mussolini to get the trains running on time doesn't make you a fascist, but it does make you partially responsible for the rise of fascism.


Yes but they lived in an area where Mussolini’s party wouldn’t win the constituency so it’s not their fault and they could freely vote for him with no guilt.


My favourite is "I just wanted to leave the EU, not all the other stuff!"

It's like saying "I just wanted to drive fast while drunk, I didn't intend to run someone over."


IT’S NOT RACIST TO WANT TO CONTROL IMMIGRATION AND TO KEEP GOING ON AND ON AND ON ABOUT ALL THE IMMIGRANTS FLOODING THE COUNTRY!

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Rex Kramer
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Rex Kramer » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:13 am

Nice to see the right wing press trying to bury the Windrush fiasco under a bit of Labour anti-semitism.

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Moggy
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Moggy » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:24 am

Rex Kramer wrote:Nice to see the right wing press trying to bury the Windrush fiasco under a bit of Labour anti-semitism.


What’s really astonishing is the Mail front page is still pushing the Windrush story and also an environmental campaign (with one of the Queens corgis thrown in to prove it is the Mail).

Has Dacre been secretly ousted? :lol:

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Moggy
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Moggy » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:38 am



:lol:

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Corazon de Leon
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Corazon de Leon » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:45 am

Moggy wrote:
Alvin Flummux wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Alvin Flummux wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Vermilion wrote:
Moggy wrote:I could probably come up with a number of things that Thatcher, Major, Blair, Brown and Cameron did that were either decent or competent.


I don't recall the unholy coalition trinity of Cameron/Clegg/Osborne ever doing anything that was either decent or competent.


Gay marriage.


That was inevitable no matter who was in office, surely?


Probably, but they were the ones who did it.


How much credit do they really deserve, though, if it was an inevitability?


They deserve the credit for actually doing it. Blair didn’t, Brown didn’t, Cameron/Clegg did.

Lots of things are inevitable eventually.

Slavery was always going to be banned eventually, but Wilberforce/Lincoln deserve credit for ending it.

Civil rights would have happened eventually but Martin Luther King deserves credit for his efforts.

The Nazis would have fallen eventually, but the UK/USA/Russia get the credit for stopping it.


The question was based on doing something decent and/or competent, not on doing something that would happen eventually.


I agree with the point, but not the best examples. There's no certainty the Nazis would've failed if they hadn't ballsed their own tactics up and MLK was one part of a massive group of people and organisations who pushed for civil rights in the 1960s, most of whom really don't get enough credit.

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Moggy
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PostRe: The Politics Thread 4
by Moggy » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:54 am

Corazon de Leon wrote:I agree with the point, but not the best examples. There's no certainty the Nazis would've failed if they hadn't ballsed their own tactics up and MLK was one part of a massive group of people and organisations who pushed for civil rights in the 1960s, most of whom really don't get enough credit.


He becomes a doctor and then immediately starts lecturing everyone. :x

You are probably right, I was just writing a quick post and trying to use famous examples of people getting the credit for things that were probably inevitable.

Another Cameron/Clegg thing that I give them credit for is upping the threshold for tax, I think pushing it up to over £12k was a decent thing to do (even if the higher tax rate was reduced).


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