Amazon announce Lord of the Rings TV series, set before Fellowship

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Jenuall
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PostRe: Amazon announce Lord of the Rings TV series, set before Fellowship
by Jenuall » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:50 pm

Are the Tolkien fans getting so frustrated here because of the way these queries are (in some cases repeatedly) being brought up, or because you actually think that the story of the trilogy is genuinely 100% logically consistent?

Any story will have plot holes and inconsistencies, as long as they don't fundamentally break the narrative and your enjoyment then what's the problem?

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PostRe: Amazon announce Lord of the Rings TV series, set before Fellowship
by Moggy » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:52 pm

Lagamorph wrote:Just tie it to a rock and toss it in the ocean or something. They don't have Cthulu right?


That was discussed at the Council of Elrond and rejected.

Jenuall wrote:Are the Tolkien fans getting so frustrated here because of the way these queries are (in some cases repeatedly) being brought up, or because you actually think that the story of the trilogy is genuinely 100% logically consistent?

Any story will have plot holes and inconsistencies, as long as they don't fundamentally break the narrative and your enjoyment then what's the problem?


I am not sure anybody is all that frustrated. I am mostly messing around and I think Karl is as well. Denny is just an angry man.

The eagle question does come up too often though and isn’t a plot hole or an inconsistency.

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PostRe: Amazon announce Lord of the Rings TV series, set before Fellowship
by Karl_ » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:54 pm

I like the idea that an eagle would just agree to fly a random hobbit dangling on a rope to Mount Doom - which holds magical significance precisely because it was the place the ring was forged - based on a vague prompt from Gandalf - who was literally sent to Middle-Earth to assist in the fight against Sauron - without at some point thinking "Hmm, I wonder if he's carrying something important".

As soon as the eagle has that idea it's all over, the ring will use its magical influence to twist his thoughts. It doesn't matter if Frodo is sat on its back or suspended upside-down on a bungee cord.

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PostRe: Amazon announce Lord of the Rings TV series, set before Fellowship
by OrangeRKN » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:59 pm

Okay I would like to address your concerns one by one as I think we're onto something here and we really should nail it down before pitching it to Amazon (I assume they are still in the script writing phase here, and this is a great chance to correct the blatant plot holes in the original (badly written) story).

Karl wrote:What happens if the ring manages to work its way free from Frodo (which it would be trying to do)?


The ring will be completely secured, hidden in a locked box (and preferably encased in molten metal prior to setting out) and attached to Frodo with several chains for redundancy. If anything we could ask the same question of the actual story - where it's pretty clear Frodo took a lot /less/ precautions than I am suggesting.

Karl wrote:The ring gains power as it approaches the Sammath Naur, and it broke Frodo's will there even while Sauron was distracted, so do you not think it might be even more of a problem to have that effect compounded by the force of Sauron's gaze?


Moggy wrote:Frodo was unable to drop the ring into Mount Doom so it doesn’t matter how he got there or how long the rope was.


Behind the eagle carrying Frodo by rope (lets call this the rope eagle, for brevity) is another Eagle carrying Legolas (he is riding this eagle, a rope is not necessary). Neither this eagle or Legolas have any knowledge about the ring or the true purpose of the mission. Legolas is acting under strict instruction from Gandalf to follow Frodo to Mount Doom and to shoot him so that he falls into the magma. Legolas is an established master archer so this task should be well within his ability. As an archer he also has the great advantage of being able to stay at distance from Frodo - thereby preventing the ring from exerting any influence over him due to proximity, as with the rope eagle.

Moggy wrote:An eagle would have taken it for itself. They are not normal eagles, they are basically the same sort of spirit as Gandalf.


As we've already established, the eagle will not know about the ring nor come within any dangerous distance of the ring.

Moggy wrote:Sauron could sense the ring when it got close to him. As Frodo approached Mount Doom, Sauron could sense it was nearby but thought it was Aragorn that had it and that Aragorn was arrogant enough to attack him before mastering the rings power. Flying/pole vaulting/whatever to Mount Doom would have brought the whole of Mordor down upon whoever was approaching. Sure they could have tried the same trick of sending an army to the gates of Mordor while an eagle flew in, but it was just as quick to send a Hobbit and didn’t carry the risk of a powerful spirit being tempted to keep the ring.


You are correct about the need for a distraction. This is why Gandalf himself will take a third eagle (well, preferably as many eagles as he can muster) and approach Mordor from the opposite direction, pretending himself to have the ring.

Karl wrote:What do you do about the fell-beasts that guard the skies of Mordor?


As the Gandalf-eagle distraction is itself airbourne, the fell-beasts shall all be distracted fighting there, also keeping Sauron's gaze off the rope eagle and legolas eagle.

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PostRe: Amazon announce Lord of the Rings TV series, set before Fellowship
by Karl_ » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:00 pm

Jenuall wrote:Are the Tolkien fans getting so frustrated here because of the way these queries are (in some cases repeatedly) being brought up, or because you actually think that the story of the trilogy is genuinely 100% logically consistent?

Any story will have plot holes and inconsistencies, as long as they don't fundamentally break the narrative and your enjoyment then what's the problem?

I'm not really frustrated, I'm having fun getting angry about nonsense.

I don't think the works of Tolkien are 100% logically self-consistent but I think they are well-thought-through tales that require more than a casual watch of the movies before you're going to be able to pick any great holes in them.

EDIT: I am actually a relatively casual Tolkien fan as well. I struggle to get through The Silmarillion because it's written in a very dense way that I don't find terribly accessible. So I don't know that much about the extended LOTR universe, but I have read LOTR several times and have yet to identify any damning plot holes.

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PostRe: Amazon announce Lord of the Rings TV series, set before Fellowship
by Preezy » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:03 pm

Karl wrote:I'm not really frustrated, I'm having fun getting angry about nonsense.

Finally he admits the LotR is nonsense, victory for the naysayers! :toot: :toot:

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Jenuall
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PostRe: Amazon announce Lord of the Rings TV series, set before Fellowship
by Jenuall » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:04 pm

Karl wrote:
Jenuall wrote:Are the Tolkien fans getting so frustrated here because of the way these queries are (in some cases repeatedly) being brought up, or because you actually think that the story of the trilogy is genuinely 100% logically consistent?

Any story will have plot holes and inconsistencies, as long as they don't fundamentally break the narrative and your enjoyment then what's the problem?

I'm not really frustrated, I'm having fun getting angry about nonsense.

I don't think the works of Tolkien are 100% logically self-consistent but I think they are well-thought-through tales that require more than a casual watch of the movies before you're going to be able to pick any great holes in them.


Cool. And I would agree that they are surprisingly well thought out - given the breadth and depth of the world he created you would generally expect to find far greater issues than have been.

I may not personally love the books but I certainly respect the level of effort that Tolkien obviously put in to achieve the degree of consistency that he did.

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PostRe: Amazon announce Lord of the Rings TV series, set before Fellowship
by Denster » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:10 pm

I’m on my annual re read at the moment.
Need to get a move on. Only just had the council of Elrond.

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PostRe: Amazon announce Lord of the Rings TV series, set before Fellowship
by Moggy » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:10 pm

OrangeRakoon wrote:Drivel


You know there was one guaranteed way of destroying the ring? Send a few Hobbits to destroy it.

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PostRe: Amazon announce Lord of the Rings TV series, set before Fellowship
by Moggy » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:13 pm

Denster wrote:I’m on my annual re read at the moment.
Need to get a move on. Only just had the council of Elrond.


The Council of Elrond was silly. Why didn’t Boromir suggest that they spend all their time and money on inventing a jumbo jet so that they could fly to Mordor? Gimli wouldn’t have trusted flying, but he could have spent his time inventing a fleet of tanks to invade Mordor properly!

strawberry floating plot holes everywhere!

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PostRe: Amazon announce Lord of the Rings TV series, set before Fellowship
by Karl_ » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:14 pm

Just to clarify, OR, your plan involves:

  • Somehow tricking three eagles into flying a hobbit - who has been chained to a super-locked treasure chest - an elf, and a wizard to the skies above Mount Doom without suspecting at any point that they are doing something important
  • Suspending Frodo and his heavy box from one of those eagles via a thin rope that is breakable by arrow
  • Convincing Legolas, who is essentially a good person, to shoot Frodo into magma
  • Having a midair battle between a few birds versus nine fell-beasts with ring-wraiths - including the witch-king, who can in-canon totally beat Gandalf up - with aerial support from various other airborne monsters, under the gaze of Sauron, on his home turf
...and you feel this is legit a better and less risky plan than having someone the enemy wouldn't possibly suspect stealth their way in?

Here's what would happen: the eagle carrying the ring would realise what he was doing and eat Frodo and take it (big locked box or no) for himself. While that's happening, the witch-king would absolutely wreck Gandalf. Oh and Legolas would be captured and tortured to death.

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Denster
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PostRe: Amazon announce Lord of the Rings TV series, set before Fellowship
by Denster » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:15 pm

:lol:

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Preezy
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PostRe: Amazon announce Lord of the Rings TV series, set before Fellowship
by Preezy » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:16 pm

Karl wrote:Here's what would happen: the eagle carrying the ring would realise what he was doing and eat Frodo and take it (big locked box or no) for himself. While that's happening, the witch-king would absolutely wreck Gandalf. Oh and Legolas would be captured and tortured to death.

Sounds good let's run with it.

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PostRe: Amazon announce Lord of the Rings TV series, set before Fellowship
by Denster » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:19 pm

Middle earth covered in darkness. All thanks to Preezy, a witless worm.

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PostRe: Amazon announce Lord of the Rings TV series, set before Fellowship
by OrangeRKN » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:19 pm

Karl wrote:Here's what would happen: the eagle carrying the ring would realise what he was doing and eat Frodo and take it (big locked box or no) for himself. While that's happening, the witch-king would absolutely wreck Gandalf. Oh and Legolas would be captured and tortured to death.


Now tell me you wouldn't watch that as a new Amazon show

Anything that leads to Legolas dying can only be a good thing

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PostRe: Amazon announce Lord of the Rings TV series, set before Fellowship
by Preezy » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:21 pm

Denster wrote:Middle earth covered in darkness. All thanks to Preezy, a witless worm.

:)

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PostRe: Amazon announce Lord of the Rings TV series, set before Fellowship
by Moggy » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:25 pm

Karl wrote:Just to clarify, OR, your plan involves:

  • Somehow tricking three eagles into flying a hobbit - who has been chained to a super-locked treasure chest - an elf, and a wizard to the skies above Mount Doom without suspecting at any point that they are doing something important
  • Suspending Frodo and his heavy box from one of those eagles via a thin rope that is breakable by arrow
  • Convincing Legolas, who is essentially a good person, to shoot Frodo into magma
  • Having a midair battle between a few birds versus nine fell-beasts with ring-wraiths - including the witch-king, who can in-canon totally beat Gandalf up - with aerial support from various other airborne monsters, under the gaze of Sauron, on his home turf
...and you feel this is legit a better and less risky plan than having someone the enemy wouldn't possibly suspect stealth their way in?

Here's what would happen: the eagle carrying the ring would realise what he was doing and eat Frodo and take it (big locked box or no) for himself. While that's happening, the witch-king would absolutely wreck Gandalf. Oh and Legolas would be captured and tortured to death.


It might be a terrible plan, but I would watch the gooseberry fool out of that. :lol:

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PostRe: Amazon announce Lord of the Rings TV series, set before Fellowship
by Preezy » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:31 pm

What I don't get is - Gollum had the Ring for a loooong time, right? So whilst he had it, why didn't Sauron see it? Surely he could have sent some trolls or goblins to go and get it from him? And when Bilbo put the ring on and disappeared up the garden path (oo-er) why didn't Sauron get drawn to that happening?

I think Sauron comes across quite badly in the story, he's a bit incompetent.

Last edited by Preezy on Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostRe: Amazon announce Lord of the Rings TV series, set before Fellowship
by Buffalo » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:31 pm

9 pages?! :lol:

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Moggy
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PostRe: Amazon announce Lord of the Rings TV series, set before Fellowship
by Moggy » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:11 pm

Preezy wrote:What I don't get is - Gollum had the Ring for a loooong time, right? So whilst he had it, why didn't Sauron see it? Surely he could have sent some trolls or goblins to go and get it from him? And when Bilbo put the ring on and disappeared up the garden path (oo-er) why didn't Sauron get drawn to that happening?

I think Sauron comes across quite badly in the story, he's a bit incompetent.


Sauron was still regaining his power after getting his finger chopped off.


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