Are All Men Trash? Discussion

I'm a nice guy.

Moggy wrote:

That's exactly what the problem is. Sexual harassment against men is seen as a myth or some big joke when it's just as real as sexual harassment against women. You'll find trash anywhere, whether you're male, female or Moggy.

LightWanderer wrote:

Moggy wrote:

That's exactly what the problem is. Sexual harassment against men is seen as a myth or some big joke when it's just as real as sexual harassment against women. You'll find trash anywhere, whether you're male, female or Moggy.

I don’t doubt sexual harassment against men is real.

I laughed at your claim that men get just as much sexual harassment from women.

Moggy wrote:

LightWanderer wrote:

Moggy wrote:

That's exactly what the problem is. Sexual harassment against men is seen as a myth or some big joke when it's just as real as sexual harassment against women. You'll find trash anywhere, whether you're male, female or Moggy.

I don’t doubt sexual harassment against men is real.

I laughed at your claim that men get just as much sexual harassment from women.

Have you ever been on a public bus and there's a group of girls giggling about how cute you are? Have you ever received messages where women randomly send nude pictures of themselves? Have you ever been at a house party and a drunk girl is begging you to have sex with her? Have you ever gotten texts from a girl where she says exactly what she wants to do to you when you're alone?

LightWanderer wrote:

Moggy wrote:

LightWanderer wrote:

Moggy wrote:

That's exactly what the problem is. Sexual harassment against men is seen as a myth or some big joke when it's just as real as sexual harassment against women. You'll find trash anywhere, whether you're male, female or Moggy.

I don’t doubt sexual harassment against men is real.

I laughed at your claim that men get just as much sexual harassment from women.

Have you ever been on a public bus and there's a group of girls giggling about how cute you are? Have you ever received messages where women randomly send nude pictures of themselves? Have you ever been at a house party and a drunk girl is begging you to have sex with her? Have you ever gotten texts from a girl where she says exactly what she wants to do to you when you're alone?

Worst “I’m sexy as strawberry float” ever.

Moggy wrote:Worst “I’m sexy as strawberry float” ever.

And that's EXACTLY why men usually don't report sexual harassment. It's seen as a joke, a brag or a strike against their masculinity. For the record, sexual harassment is real. It happens regardless of gender. Sexual harassers are trash, but men in general are not.

To be more serious, the only times I’ve been groped or had inappropriate comments it was gay men. I don’t think a woman has ever harassed me.

Again, I don’t doubt women can harass men, but it’s ridiculous to claim they are just as bad as men. It’s not even close.

I often find myself terribly intimidated by a group of 45kg giggling schoolgirls on the bus.

I've had sexual harrassment from both women and gay men.

With the gay men one was at work (creepy comments as I made his coffee) and one was in a gay karaoke bar (he asked me if I liked his song then he told me he sang it for me). On the same evening a lesbian woman I was out with bumped into another woman as we were walking through the gay district and they properly kicked off at each other in a way that straight men just wouldn't, because it was such a nothing event not even close to warranting a fight, so I don't even know what was going on that evening.

From women I've had comments about my body (apparently I have no arse - who knew?!), I've had my arse pinched at work and on nights out (the work one was a bit weird, it was definitely more playful than sexual and it didn't really bother me, but it was still quite inappropriate), I've had women desperate to stroke my beard (they would come up and ask, but you're pressured into saying yes because you don't want to be that wanker on their night out).

In terms of number of instances and in terms of fear of rape/assault women definitely have it far worse. However I think it can be more difficult in a way for men because there's no clear guidance on what to do, and society closes off a lot of escape routes. Take physicality: we all know women who have had their arse pinched in a club and have turned round and lamped the guy. They then wear it like a badge of honour to say "LOOK AT ME, I DON'T TAKE NO gooseberry fool FROM NOBODY!" Men can't do that, because to respond physically to a woman is, in almost all circumstances, not cool, even if they have committed the first violent act. It's also very difficult to grass the woman up to the bouncers or bar staff, because it's quite emasculating to have someone else fight your battles for you, and isn't something a lot of men would feel comfortable with (I know I wouldn't be and I consider myself quite an easy going man in terms of this sort of thing.)

To treat the two as equal is completely wrong, and it's right to make a big(ger) deal out of how women are treated because the threats to them are usually far higher and in a lot of circles it's a lot more accepted than it should be. However, dismissing this false equivalency should be done sensitively because throwing the "baby" of men's personal feelings out with the "bath water" of the false equivalency isn't going to help get rid of toxic masculinity.

Im scum of the earth, but in a good way.

Hello, my name's Balladeer and I'm rubbish.

Not 'trash'. Trash is American. I'm good old-fashioned British rubbish.

Balladeer wrote:Hello, my name's Balladeer and I'm rubbish.

Not 'trash'. Trash is American. I'm good old-fashioned British rubbish.

Good name in man and woman, dear my lord,
Is the immediate jewel of their souls:
Who steals my purse steals trash; ’tis something, nothing;
’twas mine, ’tis his, and has been slave to thousands;
But he that filches from me my good name
Robs me of that which not enriches him,
And makes me poor indeed.

A quote by Billy-Joe Shakespeare from Alabama

Basically American is all Puritan-era English, because that’s when they went across and slaughtered the natives and they’ve kept the words since.

That’s my stance and I’m sticking to it. And being rubbish, 30-year-old rubbish at that, I’m quite sticky.

I SEE YOU NO CONTEXT THREAD PUT THAT DOWN

Dowbocop wrote:One was in a gay karaoke bar (he asked me if I liked his song then he told me he sang it for me).

What's wrong here? Aren't gay bars a place for cruising? So him saying he sang the song for you is just a pickup line. I wouldn't call that harassment unless there's more to the story or I'm missing something? I've done my share of experimentation in the past before realising I don't really like sex, and I've definitely used cheesy pickup lines. If he was being aggressive about it or persisted after you told him to back off, then sure.

Dowbocop wrote:I've had sexual harrassment from both women and gay men.

With the gay men one was at work (creepy comments as I made his coffee) and one was in a gay karaoke bar (he asked me if I liked his song then he told me he sang it for me). On the same evening a lesbian woman I was out with bumped into another woman as we were walking through the gay district and they properly kicked off at each other in a way that straight men just wouldn't, because it was such a nothing event not even close to warranting a fight, so I don't even know what was going on that evening.

From women I've had comments about my body (apparently I have no arse - who knew?!), I've had my arse pinched at work and on nights out (the work one was a bit weird, it was definitely more playful than sexual and it didn't really bother me, but it was still quite inappropriate), I've had women desperate to stroke my beard (they would come up and ask, but you're pressured into saying yes because you don't want to be that wanker on their night out).

In terms of number of instances and in terms of fear of rape/assault women definitely have it far worse. However I think it can be more difficult in a way for men because there's no clear guidance on what to do, and society closes off a lot of escape routes. Take physicality: we all know women who have had their arse pinched in a club and have turned round and lamped the guy. They then wear it like a badge of honour to say "LOOK AT ME, I DON'T TAKE NO gooseberry fool FROM NOBODY!" Men can't do that, because to respond physically to a woman is, in almost all circumstances, not cool, even if they have committed the first violent act. It's also very difficult to grass the woman up to the bouncers or bar staff, because it's quite emasculating to have someone else fight your battles for you, and isn't something a lot of men would feel comfortable with (I know I wouldn't be and I consider myself quite an easy going man in terms of this sort of thing.)

To treat the two as equal is completely wrong, and it's right to make a big(ger) deal out of how women are treated because the threats to them are usually far higher and in a lot of circles it's a lot more accepted than it should be. However, dismissing this false equivalency should be done sensitively because throwing the "baby" of men's personal feelings out with the "bath water" of the false equivalency isn't going to help get rid of toxic masculinity.

Sounds like the guy was flirting, or is flirting sexual harassment now? That isn't me being a dick, I'm genuinely curious. Like I get stuff like arse pinching and constant sexual comments, but one guy saying that to me just sounds like normal flirting.

I accept it probably was drunken flirting, perhaps with finely honed underground coding connotations that I, as a straight man, have no idea about, but I didn't want the attention and it made me quite uncomfortable at the time (certainly the incident at work, maybe I'm being a bit harsh on the bloke in the gay bar.) Having said that, would you say "Aren't bars a place to hook up?" and "So is flirting sexual harassment now?" if I was a woman telling this story?

To reiterate though, I'm fully aware that women do have it far worse, and perhaps I only register my mild case of harassment because I don't get harassed that much. I just remembered another incident which happened, not to me, but to a now long gone forumite called AerisHime. She visited Liverpool and SpaceJebus and I agreed to meet her for a drink/mini forum meet in a pub near Lime Street. Unbeknownst to me, she was a very attractive woman in her early twenties, and I'd directed her to a gooseberry fool pub full of pervy old men on Lime Street on a weekday afternoon. When I arrived to meet her she already had two old men giving her the old "Y'alright dere gerrrll!", and she couldn't have been there more than fifteen minutes. She was cool with it (and for the record was a great laugh), but she's probably had that happen to her so often she doesn't care.

Dowbocop wrote:I accept it probably was drunken flirting, perhaps with finely honed underground coding connotations that I, as a straight man, have no idea about, but I didn't want the attention and it made me quite uncomfortable at the time (certainly the incident at work, maybe I'm being a bit harsh on the bloke in the gay bar.) Having said that, would you say "Aren't bars a place to hook up?" and "So is flirting sexual harassment now?" if I was a woman telling this story?

To reiterate though, I'm fully aware that women do have it far worse, and perhaps I only register my mild case of harassment because I don't get harassed that much. I just remembered another incident which happened, not to me, but to a now long gone forumite called AerisHime. She visited Liverpool and SpaceJebus and I agreed to meet her for a drink/mini forum meet in a pub near Lime Street. Unbeknownst to me, she was a very attractive woman in her early twenties, and I'd directed her to a gooseberry fool pub full of pervy old men on Lime Street on a weekday afternoon. When I arrived to meet her she already had two old men giving her the old "Y'alright dere gerrrll!", and she couldn't have been there more than fifteen minutes. She was cool with it (and for the record was a great laugh), but she's probably had that happen to her so often she doesn't care.

I mean, yes I still probably would? The manner and context is obviously important, but I don't see anything wrong with a flirtatious opening line in a bar, the issue is if they persist after rejection.

I had a gay housemate and use to go to gay clubs with him quite a lot when he was single and had a few instances with guys making a move. Some were absolutely fine when I said i was straight and it changed to a friendly conversation but others were persistant and i had instances that i would consider genuine harrassment-for example, unwanted touching and following me around the club all night.

Dowbocop wrote:I accept it probably was drunken flirting, perhaps with finely honed underground coding connotations that I, as a straight man, have no idea about, but I didn't want the attention and it made me quite uncomfortable at the time (certainly the incident at work, maybe I'm being a bit harsh on the bloke in the gay bar.) Having said that, would you say "Aren't bars a place to hook up?" and "So is flirting sexual harassment now?" if I was a woman telling this story?

To reiterate though, I'm fully aware that women do have it far worse, and perhaps I only register my mild case of harassment because I don't get harassed that much. I just remembered another incident which happened, not to me, but to a now long gone forumite called AerisHime. She visited Liverpool and SpaceJebus and I agreed to meet her for a drink/mini forum meet in a pub near Lime Street. Unbeknownst to me, she was a very attractive woman in her early twenties, and I'd directed her to a gooseberry fool pub full of pervy old men on Lime Street on a weekday afternoon. When I arrived to meet her she already had two old men giving her the old "Y'alright dere gerrrll!", and she couldn't have been there more than fifteen minutes. She was cool with it (and for the record was a great laugh), but she's probably had that happen to her so often she doesn't care.

The guy at work sounds like flirting, but maybe it was too far and in an inappropriate place? I was counting more on the club situation, sounds like a cheesy line or something. Who knows though? As a straight male I may not know the coding connotations myself.

Dowbocop wrote:I accept it probably was drunken flirting, perhaps with finely honed underground coding connotations that I, as a straight man, have no idea about, but I didn't want the attention and it made me quite uncomfortable at the time (certainly the incident at work, maybe I'm being a bit harsh on the bloke in the gay bar.) Having said that, would you say "Aren't bars a place to hook up?" and "So is flirting sexual harassment now?" if I was a woman telling this story?

I only have your earlier post to go on, you said a gay man in a gay bar asked if you liked his song and said he sung it for you? Unless there is more to it then I definitely wouldn’t call it harassment, that’s just flirting, no matter if it’s males or females.

I’d say the guy at work was more like harassment. Creepy comments while making drinks might just have been meant as flirting but it’s also not appropriate in the workplace.

LightWanderer wrote:

Moggy wrote:

LightWanderer wrote:

Moggy wrote:

That's exactly what the problem is. Sexual harassment against men is seen as a myth or some big joke when it's just as real as sexual harassment against women. You'll find trash anywhere, whether you're male, female or Moggy.

I don’t doubt sexual harassment against men is real.

I laughed at your claim that men get just as much sexual harassment from women.

Have you ever been on a public bus and there's a group of girls giggling about how cute you are? Have you ever received messages where women randomly send nude pictures of themselves? Have you ever been at a house party and a drunk girl is begging you to have sex with her? Have you ever gotten texts from a girl where she says exactly what she wants to do to you when you're alone?

I don't know why you're listing random specific examples-no one is saying men don't suffer any sexual harassment ever but there's no way they suffer it at the same rate women do.