'Are You A Grinch?' - Grinches, Grinches Everywhere!

[Tomous]

Has there ever been a case in these games where a wolf has sacrificed themself in order to help build trust for the other wolves?

Kind of. DML (as Alpha) lynched one of his pack, the trust he won off the back of that took him to the very end just coming up short.

If I remember rightly, Songwriter was offed without consent and was not happy about it either.

Seems a bit harsh from DML if Songwriter hadn't agreed to sacrifice himself

Yeah, a wolf killing in his own wolfpack without their knowing js extremely harsh

He hadnt posted for a while so I assumed he was inactive. Of course when the plan started to go into full swing, he started poating again and I had to tell him the bad news! His in activity was why the plan was hatched, to make use of an inactive wolf.

To be fair I had absolutely no morals in that game. I was a complete and utter bastard.

My post was in reference to Drummy's game where we had a traitor in the wolfpack

[aayl1]

Who did Aaron seer in the first two nights?

Jenuall, the guy that EVERYONE targeted on the first night, and then Karl.

I seered Jenuall on night 1 too.

Then Errkal.

Ah its a shame you didn't contact him like I did! He could have put us in touch (although would we have trusted anyone at that point? Haha)

[Memento Mori]

Has there ever been a case in these games where a wolf has sacrificed themself in order to help build trust for the other wolves?

Kind of. DML (as Alpha) lynched one of his pack, the trust he won off the back of that took him to the very end just coming up short.

If I remember rightly, Songwriter was offed without consent and was not happy about it either.

Seems a bit harsh from DML if Songwriter hadn't agreed to sacrifice himself

Yeah, a wolf killing in his own wolfpack without their knowing js extremely harsh

He hadnt posted for a while so I assumed he was inactive. Of course when the plan started to go into full swing, he started poating again and I had to tell him the bad news! His in activity was why the plan was hatched, to make use of an inactive wolf.

To be fair I had absolutely no morals in that game. I was a complete and utter bastard.

Songwriter doesn't have much luck in these games. Was he also a wolf when he had the heart attack?

[Tomous]

Has there ever been a case in these games where a wolf has sacrificed themself in order to help build trust for the other wolves?

Kind of. DML (as Alpha) lynched one of his pack, the trust he won off the back of that took him to the very end just coming up short.

If I remember rightly, Songwriter was offed without consent and was not happy about it either.

Seems a bit harsh from DML if Songwriter hadn't agreed to sacrifice himself

Yeah, a wolf killing in his own wolfpack without their knowing js extremely harsh

He hadnt posted for a while so I assumed he was inactive. Of course when the plan started to go into full swing, he started poating again and I had to tell him the bad news! His in activity was why the plan was hatched, to make use of an inactive wolf.

To be fair I had absolutely no morals in that game. I was a complete and utter bastard.

Songwriter doesn't have much luck in these games. Was he also a wolf when he had the heart attack?

Yeah, in retrospect that game twist was a step too far

[Herdanos]

Has there ever been a case in these games where a wolf has sacrificed themself in order to help build trust for the other wolves?

Kind of. DML (as Alpha) lynched one of his pack, the trust he won off the back of that took him to the very end just coming up short.

If I remember rightly, Songwriter was offed without consent and was not happy about it either.

Seems a bit harsh from DML if Songwriter hadn't agreed to sacrifice himself

Yeah, a wolf killing in his own wolfpack without their knowing js extremely harsh

He hadnt posted for a while so I assumed he was inactive. Of course when the plan started to go into full swing, he started poating again and I had to tell him the bad news! His in activity was why the plan was hatched, to make use of an inactive wolf.

To be fair I had absolutely no morals in that game. I was a complete and utter bastard.

Songwriter doesn't have much luck in these games. Was he also a wolf when he had the heart attack?

I think that was the no wolves game.
So basically DML has shaved a few years off Songwriter's life, all things considered...

[Corazon de Leon]

Wait, the dude had an actual heart attack?

[Tomous]

DML's post in the Best Of AYAW thread:

Dear DML,

Can I remind you that my husband was on his DEATH BED..and my last words to my HUSBAND could have been about werewolfs that didn’t exist.

Kind Regards

Jon’s Wife.

This was Songwriter's wife after the No Wolves Game.

That one won quote of the year.

[Moggy]

DML's post in the Best Of AYAW thread:

Dear DML,

Can I remind you that my husband was on his DEATH BED..and my last words to my HUSBAND could have been about werewolfs that didn’t exist.

Kind Regards

Jon’s Wife.

This was Songwriter's wife after the No Wolves Game.

That one won quote of the year.

strawberry floating hell

[Drumstick]

So good

[Pedz]

strawberry floating hell.



DML is so cruel to poor Songwriter.

[Jenuall]

Who did Aaron seer in the first two nights?

Jenuall, the guy that EVERYONE targeted on the first night, and then Karl.

I seered Jenuall on night 1 too.

Then Errkal.

Ah its a shame you didn't contact him like I did! He could have put us in touch (although would we have trusted anyone at that point? Haha)

That was the difficulty, it was so hard to trust anyone that early!

I knew I was going to be dead on Day 2 as it was clear I only survived the first day by protecting myself, if I could have connected you guys that might have made it worthwhile!

I did use.my power to protect you on Day 2 so hopefully that had some positive impact for us!

[VlaSoul]

I left this a bit late, but ggs guys it was fun. Sorry I was a bit of a useless elf

Thanks for running the game Drumstick, it was fun

[Drumstick]

Who did Aaron seer in the first two nights?

Jenuall, the guy that EVERYONE targeted on the first night, and then Karl.

I seered Jenuall on night 1 too.

Then Errkal.

Ah its a shame you didn't contact him like I did! He could have put us in touch (although would we have trusted anyone at that point? Haha)

That was the difficulty, it was so hard to trust anyone that early!

I knew I was going to be dead on Day 2 as it was clear I only survived the first day by protecting myself, if I could have connected you guys that might have made it worthwhile!

I did use my power to protect you on Day 2 so hopefully that had some positive impact for us!

When I consider making changes to a game, I always think through how it will affect the players and how they might interpret the change.

Historically, seers have tended to hold back contacting players that have seered innocent for fear of exposing themselves to the Alpha role; I sought to try and alleviate that fear.

I theorised, like Hawking before me, that because the seers were getting less precise information (and that this change had been communicated to all players) that it would encourage the seers to be less passive/more aggressive in their behind the scenes play.

This worked out to a degree with Aaron making contact straight away; Ironhide seems to have made contact with sawyerpip around the halfway point too.

If I'm ever a seer I am making contact straight away because I'm willing to take the 1/40 chance that I'm not contacting the Alpha (my choice of player to seer will have already factored that into the equation).

[Qikz]

Who did Aaron seer in the first two nights?

Jenuall, the guy that EVERYONE targeted on the first night, and then Karl.

I seered Jenuall on night 1 too.

Then Errkal.

Ah its a shame you didn't contact him like I did! He could have put us in touch (although would we have trusted anyone at that point? Haha)

That was the difficulty, it was so hard to trust anyone that early!

I knew I was going to be dead on Day 2 as it was clear I only survived the first day by protecting myself, if I could have connected you guys that might have made it worthwhile!

I did use my power to protect you on Day 2 so hopefully that had some positive impact for us!

When I consider making changes to a game, I always think through how it will affect the players and how they might interpret the change.

Historically, seers have tended to hold back contacting players that have seered innocent for fear of exposing themselves to the Alpha role; I sought to try and alleviate that fear.

I theorised, like Hawking before me, that because the seers were getting less precise information (and that this change had been communicated to all players) that it would encourage the seers to be less passive/more aggressive in their behind the scenes play.

This worked out to a degree with Aaron making contact straight away; Ironhide seems to have made contact with sawyerpip around the halfway point too.

If I'm ever a seer I am making contact straight away because I'm willing to take the 1/40 chance that I'm not contacting the Alpha (my choice of player to seer will have already factored that into the equation).

Thing is though the alpha rule breaks the whole wanting to make contact right away because you could end up getting really unlucky and contacting the alpha day 1. People are very conservative when they play as a role - see Lagamorph and Hypes barely shooting anyone and none of the roles going to sawyer when I was literally begging them to when I knew 100% that Sawyer was an elf.

I think if you're going to give less precise information then the alpha cannot have seer invunerability. It makes the seer role essentially useless for the town, because they can not only scan a bad guy on day 1 by complete chance and not know, but because of that fact they can't technically trust anyone that they've seered at any point in the game. There's no way for anyone to confirm anyones innocence.

[Drumstick]

Thing is though the alpha rule breaks the whole wanting to make contact right away because you could end up getting really unlucky and contacting the alpha day 1.

Well, yes there is always that (very tiny) chance. As I said, though, if I'm a seer, I am accounting for that by determining who is absolutely a 100% villager during Day 1. My first job is to find an outlet to pass information onto. Once I've got that, then I'll start looking for mafia.

People are very conservative when they play as a role - see Lagamorph and Hypes barely shooting anyone and none of the roles going to sawyer when I was literally begging them to when I knew 100% that Sawyer was an elf.

I don't think conservatism (in the game, much like life) does the town any favours - the exception is the vigilante role, because at the start of the game you're far more likely to take out an innocent. Hypes and Laga did the right thing by holding onto their bullets - and I'd argue they did the town a favour by offing Cora because it prevented the town from wasting a day chasing a dead lead (that extra day, as it turned out, was crucial).

I think if you're going to give less precise information then the alpha cannot have seer invunerability. It makes the seer role essentially useless for the town, because they can not only scan a bad guy on day 1 by complete chance and not know, but because of that fact they can't technically trust anyone that they've seered at any point in the game. There's no way for anyone to confirm anyones innocence.

Well, it evidently doesn't make them useless, they still have the ability to locate regular mafia.

I would like to hear opinions on this.

[Pancake]

The Alpha absolutely needs seer invulnerability. People are endlessly complaining about trusted PM groups and seer circles and protection circles, etc., all of these things would be far more prominent if the Alpha was detectable by a seer.

The balance was just right in this game, in my opinion. Ironhide's list of seered players was critical at the end once the Alpha scum was killed.

[Herdanos]

People are very conservative when they play as a role - see Lagamorph and Hypes barely shooting anyone and none of the roles going to sawyer when I was literally begging them to when I knew 100% that Sawyer was an elf.

I know I made this point during the game, but my being a Grinch didn't make it less true - you might have known for sure Sawyer was an elf but 1) you had no way to prove this to the thread, it was based entirely on them deciding to trust you and 2) there was no evidence to suggest whether or not you were a Grinch so no reason for the thread to trust you any more or less than any other player. So I don't think this is a fair example of people always being conservative when they have a role. There is evidence to the contrary (see: Mommy the seer).

[Herdanos]

If you remove the Alpha role's invisibility to seers then the game becomes massively imbalanced in favour of the village - to the point where I'd argue it's essentially impossible for the wolves/vamps/grinches etc to win.

I think the game is quite well balanced; all I'd change is the caveat "no victory in death for anyone". I understand the motivation behind including this, but the reality is for the special roles to be of use they have to put themselves at risk of death. Saying they lose upon death makes it less likely seers will make their intel public, but under the current ruleset they can't reliably get their info out any other way (no protection circle) without risking contacting the Alpha.

At the moment being assigned a (human) special role is a bit of a curse: you can either "win" the game by surviving, but in doing so you essentially need to be useless, and will likely be castigated for it; or you can aid the cause, but inevitably be killed and thus lose. If the rules are set to prohibit protection circles, there needs to be some incentive for specials to come forward and be formally recognised for their contribution at endgame, though I'm not sure what form this could take (public vote on MVP perhaps?)

[Oblomov Boblomov]

People are very conservative when they play as a role - see Lagamorph and Hypes barely shooting anyone and none of the roles going to sawyer when I was literally begging them to when I knew 100% that Sawyer was an elf.

I know I made this point during the game, but my being a Grinch didn't make it less true - you might have known for sure Sawyer was an elf but 1) you had no way to prove this to the thread, it was based entirely on them deciding to trust you and 2) there was no evidence to suggest whether or not you were a Grinch so no reason for the thread to trust you any more or less than any other player. So I don't think this is a fair example of people always being conservative when they have a role. There is evidence to the contrary (see: Mommy the seer).

There was definitely evidence to suggest Qikz was not a Grinch. Obviously not 100% evidence, but that's AYA?.

The Alpha did need immunity in this game otherwise a trusted circle would have formed immediately and it could have been easily co-ordinated to make life too difficult for the Grinches.

[Drumstick]

If you remove the Alpha role's invisibility to seers then the game becomes massively imbalanced in favour of the village - to the point where I'd argue it's essentially impossible for the wolves/vamps/grinches etc to win.

To counteract this, in the game we just ran - I would have given the grinches an addition number and kept the "down to 1 kill" figure at 3, so the town would need to get rid of 3 grinches to earn some respite.