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Re: Fallout 76 is the score it wishes it had on metacritic

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:37 pm
by OrangeXMS
My friend surprisingly got this at Christmas so the last couple of nights we've started playing in multiplayer. I'm playing it differently then to how I do in singleplayer, wanting to focus more on the events and daily quests in multiplayer so I have time to explore and do main/side quests at my own pace (where I can better absorb the lore), but it's still fun. The events definitely feel more set up for multiplayer than the rest of the game.

Rudolphin wrote:I believe this is the first sign that, unlike Destiny and No Man's Sky, F76 is a fundamentally broken game and no amount of patches or revamps will be able to save it except perhaps a complete ground up revamp which, given their conduct since launch, I highly doubt Bethesda will be willing to do.


I don't follow how caps balance in the game make it a fundamentally broken game? Making money is tough as I am always wanting to buy new camp plans, but that's kind of one of my marks of progression. I wouldn't complain about it.

jawafour wrote:I struggle with food; I seem to spend time trying to find / collect / make that rather then progressing the other objectives. I want to explore rather than be dying but I guess that's survival games!


Survival shouldn't be a problem, I find it more flavour than anything else. I always have more food than I need and end up selling a lot of it. Gathering water is free, easy and unlimited and combined with any meat you get off a variety of enemies you can cook up more food if you ever need to, but from scavenging food and drink alone you should get plenty. I have a farm going at my camp (and a water purifier, which is perhaps most useful), but I use that for farming adhesive, not food. Adhesive is pretty much the only resource I find genuinely limited due to how much I use it, but even that I've overcome with a very modest farm setup!

Re: Fallout 76 is the score it wishes it had on metacritic

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:57 pm
by Rudolphin
OrangeReindeer wrote:
Rudolphin wrote:I believe this is the first sign that, unlike Destiny and No Man's Sky, F76 is a fundamentally broken game and no amount of patches or revamps will be able to save it except perhaps a complete ground up revamp which, given their conduct since launch, I highly doubt Bethesda will be willing to do.


I don't follow how caps balance in the game make it a fundamentally broken game? Making money is tough as I am always wanting to buy new camp plans, but that's kind of one of my marks of progression. I wouldn't complain about it.


It's not about the caps being hard to obtain, it's that Bethesda's attempts to modify the economy aren't working due to the fragility and brittleness (due to their own shortsightedness) of the underlying systems. Like apparently everything in the game, they didn't design a new system tailored for an online environment more than they simply ported the system from previous Fallout games.

This was perhaps the graph I should have quoted from the article:

With a new PvP mode looming and players being able to run in-game shops, many players are excited to be able to make their mark on Appalachia’s end-game. However, these changes raise real concerns about the current economy of Fallout 76. The more players are put into contention with each other, and the more the economy moves to the forefront of the game, the more urgent it is for Bethesda to find a permanent solution to item duping and caps buying. Until then, the economy will cast a shadow over any upcoming content.

Re: Fallout 76 is the score it wishes it had on metacritic

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:13 pm
by jawafour
Rudolphin wrote:It's not about the caps being hard to obtain, it's that Bethesda's attempts to modify the economy aren't working due to the fragility and brittleness (due to their own shortsightedness) of the underlying systems. Like apparently everything in the game, they didn't design a new system tailored for an online environment more than they simply ported the system from previous Fallout games.

I'm struggling to see what the problem with the caps system is. You find them and/or get awarded them and then you can buy stuff with them. I'm reading your post from Polygon and it doesn't seem to be clear what they're trying to get at. What aspects of the economy do you feel Bethesda have modified? And what are the "fragile and brittle" things that are stopping these "modifications"?

Edit: Cool, I see that you have now added to the post. Yeah, game hackers are a pain in online games.

Re: Fallout 76 is the score it wishes it had on metacritic

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:18 pm
by Rudolphin
jawafour wrote:
Rudolphin wrote:It's not about the caps being hard to obtain, it's that Bethesda's attempts to modify the economy aren't working due to the fragility and brittleness (due to their own shortsightedness) of the underlying systems. Like apparently everything in the game, they didn't design a new system tailored for an online environment more than they simply ported the system from previous Fallout games.

I'm struggling to see what the problem with the caps system is. You find them and/or get awarded them and then you can buy stuff with them. I'm reading your post from Polygon and it doesn't seem to be clear what they're trying to get at. What aspects of the economy do you feel Bethesda have modified? And what are the "fragile and brittle" things that are stopping these "modifications"?


There are two aspects the article specifically hits on: item duping and caps purchasing. The first is a series of bugs that allow players to duplicate items and bypass caps altogether, the second is the proliferation of external sites where players can simply buy caps for real money. The problem with both is that the system Bethesda currently employ simply isn't prepared for the effect these two cheats are having on the economy of the game. As they move (presumably) into further endgame content, the idea that there will be exotic or legendary items which cost a lot of caps to buy is meaningless as people can simply cheat or buy their way to this content immediately. Even those who don't will be facing off against those who do.

jawafour wrote:Edit: Cool, I see that you have now added to the post. Yeah, game hackers are a pain in online games.


I think the real point is that these guys have existed for every online game ever made. But Bethesda simply didn't plan for them and continue to ignore them.

Re: Fallout 76 is the score it wishes it had on metacritic

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:28 pm
by HSH28
Rudolphin wrote:I think the real point is that these guys have existed for every online game ever made. But Bethesda simply didn't plan for them and continue to ignore them.


Its a strange issue to have with a game you don't like.

I'm not convinced its a real problem for those people who are 'just' having fun playing the game. You are talking about it being an issue for 'serious' players of the game who've invested 100s of hours into it and want some status for that investment. I just don't really care about that. This isn't Destiny and I can't see PvP ever really being a major part of this game no matter what they add to it.

If you want to just have fun playing the game, then the fact you can buy caps for real money doesn't really matter, the item duplication is more of an issue I suppose. But again if you are playing for fun, I don't really see the problem in it.

Re: Fallout 76 is the score it wishes it had on metacritic

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:29 pm
by Rudolphin
HSH28 wrote:
Rudolphin wrote:I think the real point is that these guys have existed for every online game ever made. But Bethesda simply didn't plan for them and continue to ignore them.


Its a strange issue to have with a game you don't like.


Not this again please. I'm perfectly entitled to any opinions on games I don't like/haven't played. I find it fascinating how badly Bethesda have strawberry floated up, the systems they used/did not use and what led to a game with everything going for it turning out so bad. This is an example of this.

Re: Fallout 76 is the score it wishes it had on metacritic

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:30 pm
by HSH28
OrangeReindeer wrote:Adhesive is pretty much the only resource I find genuinely limited due to how much I use it, but even that I've overcome with a very modest farm setup!


Do you have a way to get Ballistic Fiber? It's by far the thing I'm most having problems getting my hands on. Adhesive by comparison is fairly common place, there's Duct Tape all over the place if you are looting locations.

Re: Fallout 76 is the score it wishes it had on metacritic

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:33 pm
by HSH28
Rudolphin wrote:
HSH28 wrote:
Rudolphin wrote:I think the real point is that these guys have existed for every online game ever made. But Bethesda simply didn't plan for them and continue to ignore them.


Its a strange issue to have with a game you don't like.


Not this again please. I'm perfectly entitled to any opinions on games I don't like/haven't played. I find it fascinating how badly Bethesda have strawberry floated up, the systems they used/did not use and what led to a game with everything going for it turning out so bad. This is an example of this.


Of course you are, but it is strange to have issue with problems that would only effect people who take the game massively seriously when its pretty clear you don't want to play the game at all due to other issues you have with the game.

Unless I'm missing something, do you think this is a problem for people who just want to have fun playing the game?

Re: Fallout 76 is the score it wishes it had on metacritic

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:35 pm
by jawafour
Rudolphin wrote:...The problem with both is that the system Bethesda currently employ simply isn't prepared for the effect these two cheats are having on the economy of the game... Bethesda simply didn't plan for them and continue to ignore them.

Bethesda is banning the accounts of users who have cheated. In Polygon's earlier article, they reported:

JuiceHead, a YouTuber and active member of the Fallout Reddit community, reported that numerous players received emails from Bethesda’s customer support, explaining that they were banned for cheating. As a result, the developer had closed their accounts.


...and a point of the article was that Bethesda may be banning too many folk; some users on PC claimed that they hadn't been cheating but used other (non-cheat) software whilst playing the game.

It doesn't feel like Bethesda are ignoring people who cheat in the game.

Re: Fallout 76 is the score it wishes it had on metacritic

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:45 pm
by Rudolphin
HSH28 wrote:Of course you are, but it is strange to have issue with problems that would only effect people who take the game massively seriously when its pretty clear you don't want to play the game at all due to other issues you have with the game.

Unless I'm missing something, do you think this is a problem for people who just want to have fun playing the game?


Like I say, it's the systems at play, the design of the game, that I'm interested in as well as Bethesda's often fascinatingly poor responses to problems (the 'write an essay on why cheating is bad' thing being particularly noteworthy). Truth is, I don't have a huge investment in this particular aspect, I originally mentioned it as something more interesting than the glitched nukes, but again it's another interesting lapse of judgement.

jawafour wrote:Bethesda is banning the accounts of users who have cheated. In Polygon's earlier article, they reported:

JuiceHead, a YouTuber and active member of the Fallout Reddit community, reported that numerous players received emails from Bethesda’s customer support, explaining that they were banned for cheating. As a result, the developer had closed their accounts.


...and a point of the article was that Bethesda may be banning too many folk; some users on PC claimed that they hadn't been cheating but used other (non-cheat) software whilst playing the game.

It doesn't feel like Bethesda are ignoring people who cheat in the game.


Maybe ignore was the wrong word (although they don't seem to be doing anything about people who sell caps on any sort of impactful scale because...they can't). As you say, they're banning people but it's the wrong people. Another example of the continued fucking-up of basic game and systems design on display around this game. Which is what I'm really interested in.

Re: Fallout 76 is the score it wishes it had on metacritic

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:47 pm
by Photek
Taf

Image

Re: Fallout 76 is the score it wishes it had on metacritic

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:51 pm
by jawafour
Rudolphin wrote:Maybe ignore was the wrong word (although they don't seem to be doing anything about people who sell caps on any sort of impactful scale because...they can't). As you say, they're banning people but it's the wrong people. Another example of the continued fucking-up of basic game and systems design on display around this game. Which is what I'm really interested in.

Bethesda are banning people they suspect of cheating. They can't stop people creating websites and selling cheats. By banning the accounts of the people who use cheats, this deters folk from doing so. Taking these actions is not a "continuing fuck-up".

Re: Fallout 76 is the score it wishes it had on metacritic

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:02 pm
by Rudolphin
Ho-Ho-Ho-tek wrote:Taf

Image


How many times do I have to say this: I find this interesting! I'm not going to stop discussing the failings of this game due to, I dunno, opposing opinions existing. If a mod sees my contributions as shitposting then that's different but...well, that's not what I'm doing.

jawafour wrote:They can't stop people creating websites and selling cheats. By banning the accounts of the people who use cheats, this deters folk from doing so. Taking these actions is not a "continuing fuck-up".


Actually, they can.

And I'm not in here to convince you jawa, we've been through that, I'm here to bring up interesting articles about this deeply flawed game.

Re: Fallout 76 is the score it wishes it had on metacritic

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:13 pm
by jawafour
Rudolphin wrote:...And I'm not in here to convince you jawa, we've been through that, I'm here to bring up interesting articles about this deeply flawed game.

It just feels a little odd that you're, by your own definition, so interested in the systems, designs, failings, media reports and other people's opinions of the game, and are pretty vocal about them - all without having any experience of the game yourself.

Nothing to stop you taking this approach, of course, but if you're that interested I'd have thought you'd want to try it out for yourself. Even if only to confirm your assumptions.

Re: Fallout 76 is the score it wishes it had on metacritic

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:21 pm
by Photek
As an aside, Rare (and by extension MS) have a zero tolerance to cheating in Sea of Thieves. If you catch someone cheating and provide any evidence they're banned.

Re: Fallout 76 is the score it wishes it had on metacritic

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:22 pm
by HSH28
Rudolphin wrote:I'm here to bring up interesting articles about this deeply flawed game.


In your opinion.

I'm not going to argue that the game doesn't have lots of issues, but I think most of the people that seem to enjoy hating the game just didn't like the whole concept of it to begin with.

That's the root issue I think, its not that its 'deeply flawed' its just not the game you wanted to play. On top of that it obviously has a fair amount of both technical and design issues going on that are completely separate to the type of game that it is. Both of these types of issues are probably fixable at least to an extent (and the game does seem to now be in at least a better state than it did at launch), but what fixing or mitigating these issues won't do is change the game into something that it isn't.

I'm having quite a bit of fun playing this game with a couple of other people on a regular basis, I've already put more time into this game than any other Bethesda RPG I've ever played, while I won't say its a better game than those other games, its clearly got something to it and it isn't just a bad game.

Re: Fallout 76 is the score it wishes it had on metacritic

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:39 pm
by Rudolphin
Again, I'm not here to convince people. But this is, objectively from all the evidence, the very epitome of a deeply flawed game. It's not an example of people not wanting the game to begin with then refusing to acknowledge when it received plaudits all round, this is a game some people didn't want which went on to be a critical flop.

This doesn't mean you can't enjoy it, but denying it's a deeply flawed experience smacks of revisionism and an inability to consider consensus.

And jawa, I have way, way too many decent games on my list to even consider this. I don't have to go through a divorce to know Brexit is a bad idea!

Re: Fallout 76 is the score it wishes it had on metacritic

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:14 pm
by HSH28
Rudolphin wrote:Again, I'm not here to convince people. But this is, objectively from all the evidence, the very epitome of a deeply flawed game. It's not an example of people not wanting the game to begin with then refusing to acknowledge when it received plaudits all round, this is a game some people didn't want which went on to be a critical flop.

This doesn't mean you can't enjoy it, but denying it's a deeply flawed experience smacks of revisionism and an inability to consider consensus.


Like I said I think some of the issues people have with the game stem from wanting it to be a different game, this isn't revisionism, that is a fact.

I don't accept the reviews as evidence that the game is 'deeply flawed', it might come down to semantics and what you mean by that. The game at launch (and still to an extent now), I will concede could be described as 'broken' but that isn't the same thing.

When you say 'deeply flawed' what is it exactly that you mean? Are you talking about the bits in the game that are broken (like framerate, stability and the prevalence of a multitude of bugs), or the lack of end game content in the game (or content in general quest wise) or are you actually talking about the whole design concept for the game?

The first two can (and to an extent probably will) be fixed in time, these things will effect the quality of the game and could make the game something other than a critical flop.

If you are talking about the 3rd one, then again I'd say its just that the game isn't what you wanted it to be...this does not make it a bad game.

Re: Fallout 76 is the score it wishes it had on metacritic

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:15 pm
by jawafour
I admit that your posts about Fallout 76 do frustrate me, Taf. Not because I don't think you should share your opinions, but more because I wonder what the aim of it is. You have made your views extremely clear; you haven't liked the game since it was announced and you have been critical of it since that point. You have indicated that Bethesda will not be able to do anything to change your perspective on this. Hopefully the next mainline title in the Fallout franchise - or even a further different take on the series! - will be more your thing. Would I be right in thinking that you are taking this line because you want the game to fail? So that Bethesda may focus solely on the type of games that more suit your tastes?

Rudolphin wrote:..This doesn't mean you can't enjoy it, but denying it's a deeply flawed experience smacks of revisionism and an inability to consider consensus...

Orange, HSH and myself have played the game and I don't think any of us are denying that there are flaws in the game, nor that we are attempting to over-ride the widespread criticism, nor that we have "an inability to consider consensus".

Re: Fallout 76 is the score it wishes it had on metacritic

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:30 pm
by OrangeXMS
Rudolphin wrote:There are two aspects the article specifically hits on: item duping and caps purchasing. The first is a series of bugs that allow players to duplicate items and bypass caps altogether, the second is the proliferation of external sites where players can simply buy caps for real money. The problem with both is that the system Bethesda currently employ simply isn't prepared for the effect these two cheats are having on the economy of the game. As they move (presumably) into further endgame content, the idea that there will be exotic or legendary items which cost a lot of caps to buy is meaningless as people can simply cheat or buy their way to this content immediately. Even those who don't will be facing off against those who do.


I don't see cheating as a problem unless it affects my own play. In all the previous Bethesda Fallouts if you were on PC you could just bring up the console and give yourself a load of money or spawn a legendary weapon. The difference here of course is that it is an online game, and with PVP it can be unfair if people have cheated to get the best weapons and armour. PVP however is both a very small part of the game, and the anti-grief systems in place are so powerful as to essentially make it optional. So should someone try to attack me with some unfair setup, I should pretty much just be able to ignore it.

We've yet to see what player vending will look like, but at worst the going price of the most powerful weapons and armour will be deflated. For myself concerned with the balance of the game, I can simply choose to just not buy those things, in the same way I have always chosen not to use the console to spawn things in or give myself more money.

I can see how both issues could cause big problems in PVP games and MMOs, but the way I am playing Fallout 76 it is neither. I've been playing the game up till now with absolutely no knowledge of either.