Fallout 76 is the score it wishes it had on metacritic

HSH28 wrote:

Lagamorph wrote:Except it is true.

Look at what happened with Battlefront 2. EA had to basically shut down their monetisation for a long period of time, then completely change the way a fundamental part of the game functioned, all because of the continued public backlash that people kept up rather than just going quiet about.

But it hasn't stopped devs and publishers making games with loot boxes in them or releasing games which are broken.

There will always be financial reasons to release games like this and shouting about it isn't going to make those reasons go away.

So we should just stop complaining and accept it?
No developer has gone quite as far as Battlefront 2 since that whole debacle, but if their hadn't been the public outcry I can guarantee you that others would have by now. I wouldn't have been remotely surprised to see top tier weapons in games like Destiny 2's latest expansion get gated behind lootboxes if EA had gotten away with it. As soon as one developer gets away with pushing the boat further, the others will all follow suit, we've seen it time and again.

Beyond making a public outcry and not purchasing the product what else can we as consumers do? The only way we can let Developers/Publishers know that this isn't acceptable is to highlight things like this and to keep highlighting them.

HSH28 wrote:

Lagamorph wrote:Except it is true.

Look at what happened with Battlefront 2. EA had to basically shut down their monetisation for a long period of time, then completely change the way a fundamental part of the game functioned, all because of the continued public backlash that people kept up rather than just going quiet about.

But it hasn't stopped devs and publishers making games with loot boxes in them or releasing games which are broken.

There will always be financial reasons to release games like this and shouting about it isn't going to make those reasons go away.

It has had an impact though, Forza horizon 4 feels very much like it was going to have lootboxes in the form of spins, on release they don't have them and you spins through the game and it feels a little odd, I would very very surprised if it was intentionally like it is and it wasn't changed to the spins thing because of the ea battlefront backlash.

Lagamorph wrote:

HSH28 wrote:

Lagamorph wrote:Except it is true.

Look at what happened with Battlefront 2. EA had to basically shut down their monetisation for a long period of time, then completely change the way a fundamental part of the game functioned, all because of the continued public backlash that people kept up rather than just going quiet about.

But it hasn't stopped devs and publishers making games with loot boxes in them or releasing games which are broken.

There will always be financial reasons to release games like this and shouting about it isn't going to make those reasons go away.

So we should just stop complaining and accept it?

Absolute not. However, it is the indifference and level of acceptance by gamers that 'this is just how things are' that has led us to this point. Doesn't mean we shouldn't give up the fight, but at the same time outside of small victories (EA's Battlefront 2) I do believe the industry has gone too far forward in this direction to bring it back to any kind of level playing field now.

The only thing we really can do, on an individual level, is vote with our wallets.

Lagamorph wrote:So we should just stop complaining and accept it?
No developer has gone quite as far as Battlefront 2 since that whole debacle, but if their hadn't been the public outcry I can guarantee you that others would have by now. I wouldn't have been remotely surprised to see top tier weapons in games like Destiny 2's latest expansion get gated behind lootboxes if EA had gotten away with it. As soon as one developer gets away with pushing the boat further, the others will all follow suit, we've seen it time and again.

Beyond making a public outcry and not purchasing the product what else can we as consumers do? The only way we can let Developers/Publishers know that this isn't acceptable is to highlight things like this and to keep highlighting them.

HSH28 wrote:That's not to say that bad things shouldn't be reported on, its just that you shouldn't get your hopes up that its going to change anything.

I just don't think it has the impact you think it has had.

HSH28 wrote:

Lagamorph wrote:So we should just stop complaining and accept it?
No developer has gone quite as far as Battlefront 2 since that whole debacle, but if their hadn't been the public outcry I can guarantee you that others would have by now. I wouldn't have been remotely surprised to see top tier weapons in games like Destiny 2's latest expansion get gated behind lootboxes if EA had gotten away with it. As soon as one developer gets away with pushing the boat further, the others will all follow suit, we've seen it time and again.

Beyond making a public outcry and not purchasing the product what else can we as consumers do? The only way we can let Developers/Publishers know that this isn't acceptable is to highlight things like this and to keep highlighting them.

HSH28 wrote:That's not to say that bad things shouldn't be reported on, its just that you shouldn't get your hopes up that its going to change anything.

I just don't think it has the impact you think it has had.

It's obvious The whole Battlefront 2 scenario has made very little difference at all. Sure EA did a turn around of sorts on that title, but it hasn't stopped publishers, including EA, pushing on with the agenda. But that doesn't mean we should stop being vocal about it and quit airing our dislike of these practices, whether it's half-baked full price games or loot boxes. While I do find myself agreeing with you in regards to the reality of the situation Hugo, I also get the impression that you think gamers should just to accept said situation and give up kicking back. Well, nothing will ever change with that attitude.

HSH28 wrote:I just don't think it has the impact you think it has had.

And I think you're underplaying said impact.

Gemini73 wrote:While I do find myself agreeing with you in regards to the reality of the situation Hugo, I also get the impression that you think gamers should just to accept said situation and give up kicking back. Well, nothing will ever change with that attitude.

I think the only thing that will change anything is if the whole model stops being profitable, or if something else comes along that can make companies more money. At the end of the day these companies do exist to make money, I can accept that.

My personal view is that I will make a judgement on the game on its merits and decide if I want to buy it or not. In most cases if the game is good enough I'll buy the game and play it, but ignore the egregious paid content.

That content being there, doesn't necessarily have to make the game worse and even if it does make the game worse, the game might still be good enough without it that I can live with it being there.

I think if you are just going to make a stand on principle and not play any of these games, you are just going to end up missing out on some really good games and no I don't think you'll convince enough other people to join you for it to make a difference.

HSH28 wrote:

Gemini73 wrote:While I do find myself agreeing with you in regards to the reality of the situation Hugo, I also get the impression that you think gamers should just to accept said situation and give up kicking back. Well, nothing will ever change with that attitude.

I think the only thing that will change anything is if the whole model stops being profitable, or if something else comes along that can make companies more money. At the end of the day these companies do exist to make money, I can accept that.

My personal view is that I will make a judgement on the game on its merits and decide if I want to buy it or not. In most cases if the game is good enough I'll buy the game and play it, but ignore the egregious paid content.

That content being there, doesn't necessarily have to make the game worse and even if it does make the game worse, the game might still be good enough without it that I can live with it being there.

I think if you are just going to make a stand on principle and not play any of these games, you are just going to end up missing out on some really good games and no I don't think you'll convince enough other people to join you for it to make a difference.

The content being there often does make the game worse though as the game is intentionally made more grindy to encourage people to spend extra.

Activision Blizzard were caught making Destiny 2 more grindy to the point that awarded XP towards free loot boxes was significantly less than what the game told you it was awarding. Once again they were forced to roll that back due to the outcry.

@Hugo

I've not missed out on anything not buying Fallout 76, so I won't miss out on anything else I choose not to buy, egregious content or not. I don't need to play everything, nor do I wish to. But what I won't do is play ball with these companies.

HSH28 wrote:

Gemini73 wrote:While I do find myself agreeing with you in regards to the reality of the situation Hugo, I also get the impression that you think gamers should just to accept said situation and give up kicking back. Well, nothing will ever change with that attitude.

I think the only thing that will change anything is if the whole model stops being profitable, or if something else comes along that can make companies more money. At the end of the day these companies do exist to make money, I can accept that.

My personal view is that I will make a judgement on the game on its merits and decide if I want to buy it or not. In most cases if the game is good enough I'll buy the game and play it, but ignore the egregious paid content.

That content being there, doesn't necessarily have to make the game worse and even if it does make the game worse, the game might still be good enough without it that I can live with it being there.

I think if you are just going to make a stand on principle and not play any of these games, you are just going to end up missing out on some really good games and no I don't think you'll convince enough other people to join you for it to make a difference.

But the market is far more complex than makes "money/doesn't make money". Taking the Battlegrounds 2 example again, or the Shadow of War one to be honest, and we can see that both the companies involved suffered huge PR hits from their employment of tactics that were deemed by the press and public as shady. Hell, a Disney exec had to ring up the head of EA and tell them to knock it off, an incredible embarrassment for them.

Now there aren't direct metrics to measure just how much an effect this had or will have on profits but there's a reason huge companies spend millions on PR departments: public opinion matters. Neither of those games were long terms successes and both have dropped from the public consciousness far quick than you would expect for such AAA releases.

Saying "companies will keep doing x if it makes them money" may be true in a meta sense, but loot boxes have become a notably more difficult resource for publishers to exploit precisely because of the fallout from those PR disasters. This isn't even counting the various regulatory measures that were prompted by the affair.

Shutting up and putting up is increasingly becoming a milquetoast response to encroaching monetisation and is, I think, counter-productive for the long term health of the industry.

Well. I had never heard/seen Milktoast before.

I can't help but feel that the discussions in this thread have moved way beyond the game itself. The core subject is now game industry practices; I can understand why but I think the discussions would be better served by having a dedicated thread.

This suggestion is not denying the issues nor trying to hide them; if people are as passionate about the subject as they are in this thread, a dedicated thread should be absolutely red-hot. The points being made go far beyond Fallout 76 and if folk wish to raise the visibility and ask people to question industry practices, I encourage them to go for it.

jawafour wrote:I can't help but feel that the discussions in this thread have moved way beyond the game itself. The core subject is now game industry practices; I can understand why but I think the discussions would be better served by having a dedicated thread.

This suggestion is not denying the issues nor trying to hide them; if people are as passionate about the subject as they are in this thread, a dedicated thread should be absolutely red-hot. The points being made go far beyond Fallout 76 and if folk wish to raise the visibility and ask people to question industry practices, I encourage them to go for it.

We've been through this jawa. This sort of conversation was previously deemed relevant to the primary discussion topics around the game online and you're not able to dictate what is/isn't discussed here.

Saying that, mods if you agree with jawa let us know.

EDIT: I'm genuinely, genuinely not trying to be a dick here. This is an interesting conversation that is well within orbit of this game's reception and the greater discussion surrounding it.

I disagree, Jawa. The fact that the discussion at hand totally relates to the state of Fallout 76 and the publisher behind the game makes it completely relevant.

It's still very much on topic.

I disagree, guys.

The discussion in past pages has clearly been about general industry practices (broken games, incomplete games, paid-for content, monetisation) and the fact that, at its simplest level, you "don't want the industry to get away with it".

I don't understand because, if you're so incredibly passionate about it - and I applaud and support you in this stance! - why do you only want the discussion to take place in the context of Fallout 76? Why wouldn't you want the topic to gain more focus?

Just have two threads

Because we're here already? It's getting enough traction here for my liking.

Also, if we start determining what is and isn't allowed within topics as strictly as you're suggesting then well. Down that path a troubling destination lies*

*ResetEra.

Yes perhaps there should be a dedicated thread to discuss what is an industry wide issue, but with the upmost respect Jawa we both know that's not why you're asking for one. So what if such a thread is created but the discussion regarding Bethesda's part in it with Fallout 76 remains here then what, accusations of derailing the thread followed by ban requests?

My apology to you was sincere as I felt things were getting silly in here previously, but here you are again attempting to police the thread and force other members out of the debate through suggesting they create their own thread.

Tafdolphin wrote:Because we're here already? It's getting enough traction here for my liking...

I suspected that this was the case but I wanted to give you the opportunity to respond and clarify.

If you really did have so much passion about these industry-wide issues, you'd be starting a thread and yelling about it. With good reason, too, as many publishers are - in my opinion - taking gamers for a ride with some aspects. Yes, including Bethesda.

But not *exclusively*. And your response - that "it's getting enough traction for your liking" - in a Fallout 76 game thread... well, at best it suggests that you're not actually interested in the bigger picture.

Fake edit: Only mods can police the thread; I don't think I've ever suggested otherwise. But calling out things you disagree with, and proposing ways forward? Anyone should feel comfortable to do that.

jawafour wrote:

Tafdolphin wrote:Because we're here already? It's getting enough traction here for my liking...

I suspected that this was the case but I wanted to give you the opportunity to respond and clarify.

If you really did have so much passion about these industry-wide issues, you'd be starting a thread and yelling about it. With good reason, too, as many publishers are - in my opinion - taking gamers for a ride with some aspects. Yes, including Bethesda.

But not *exclusively*. And your response - that "it's getting enough traction for your liking" - in a Fallout 76 game thread... well, at best it suggests that you're not actually interested in the bigger picture.

Fake edit: Only mods can police the thread; I don't think I've ever suggested otherwise. But calling out things you disagree with, and proposing ways forward? Anyone should feel comfortable to do that.

Jawa.

I've explained why I'm here. I and others have explained that you don't have the right to police the thread and yet you repeatedly try. You didn't respond to my large post extrapolating on the former, and you consistently deny the latter. And now that I've made a semi-joking response that you feel you can latch onto and make me look like a hyperbolic rabble-rouser, you have.

I'm not going to expand or clarify further on my reasons for wanting to discuss something in this thread, because I don't have to. Not I, nor any others in this thread, owe you any such explanation. You are free to badger away as long as you like but I plan on continuing to raise this and other discussions whenever they naturally raise their heads in relation to Fallout 76. You no doubt plan to attempt to stop this, as is your right.

Let's call this a Cold War armistice and continue what we both do best.