Brexit Thread 2

Fed up talking videogames? Why?

How would you vote if we had to vote again?

Leave
12
7%
Remain
159
93%
 
Total votes: 171
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Tomous
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Tomous » Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:36 pm

BID0 wrote:I've given up following Brexit these days but hasn't Labour's initial outline for their Brexit been seen by the EU and agreed to work in principle? It would be more like a Norway deal that would allow for access to the markets and workforce, thus protecting jobs?

Or did the Labour Brexit plan change since the EU looked at it?

And a referendum on that seems logical to me because like the Tory deal, no deal and every other favour of Brexit there as been (including remain), there is no majority in Parliament so it needs to be decided by a referendum.


But he's not said they would have a referendum on his deal if they win the GE and get power, only if they're the opposition.

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BID0
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by BID0 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:42 pm

Tomous wrote:
BID0 wrote:I've given up following Brexit these days but hasn't Labour's initial outline for their Brexit been seen by the EU and agreed to work in principle? It would be more like a Norway deal that would allow for access to the markets and workforce, thus protecting jobs?

Or did the Labour Brexit plan change since the EU looked at it?

And a referendum on that seems logical to me because like the Tory deal, no deal and every other favour of Brexit there as been (including remain), there is no majority in Parliament so it needs to be decided by a referendum.


But he's not said they would have a referendum on his deal if they win the GE and get power, only if they're the opposition.

Page 564 looks like whatever the deals end up being, it goes to a referendum. The unions were the sticking point up until now and it sounds like they've u-turned on their "no referendums" stance.

Like I said there's no majority in parliament for any option (which is why this has dragged for so long), the only way to get something through is to go back to the electorate.

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Samuel_1
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Samuel_1 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:46 pm

Tomous wrote:
Hexx wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Hyperion wrote:I mean strawberry floating hell Labour fudge upon fudge

They're backing a confirmatory vote, that's good news, isn't it?


"We support Remain while we're in opposition, but Leave if we get into power"

:slol:



So the solution for Remain voters is to vote Tory so Labour stay as the opposition and support remain.

Bravo Jeremy, bravo.

No, they say they will try to get a deal if they gain power and then offer this deal or remain in a referendum.

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Hexx
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Hexx » Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:47 pm

BID0 wrote:I've given up following Brexit these days but hasn't Labour's initial outline for their Brexit been seen by the EU and agreed to work in principle?.



Nope don’t think so - Labs deal is still based on Unicorns.

They reacted positively earlier in the year when Corbyn offered to meet May and set some preconditions. But it was along the lines of ‘Great cross party solutions are the way out of this!’

That quickly became the EU loves Corbyns plan, it’s the solution, why don’t people let magic grandpa save us etc

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Samuel_1 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:48 pm

Hexx wrote:

Already the fudge gets fudgey! Now it's only a certain type of Tory Deal :fp:

A strawberry float off you useless old lying coot. There is NO DEAL that protects jobs and economy. It's just a slightly lesser shafting.

Which is why they are offering the people a second referendum if they get into power.

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BID0
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by BID0 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:52 pm

Hexx wrote:
BID0 wrote:I've given up following Brexit these days but hasn't Labour's initial outline for their Brexit been seen by the EU and agreed to work in principle?.



Nope don’t think so - Labs deal is still based on Unicorns.

They reacted positively earlier in the year when Corbyn offered to meet May and set some preconditions. But it was along the lines of ‘Great cross party solutions are the way out of this!’

That quickly became the EU loves Corbyns plan, it’s the solution, why don’t people let magic grandpa save us etc

I know that Labour (Keir Starmer) had the beginnings of their Brexit plan outlined in front of Michel Barnier and co. While it wasn't a final deal (obviously) it was reported that the EU side had saw favourably as a good starting point. This was those "unicorns" you're talking about. It was around the time Theresa May unveiled her Brexit plan, where her red lines made it impossible to get her deal through parliament.

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Hexx
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Hexx » Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:55 pm

BID0 wrote:
Hexx wrote:
BID0 wrote:I've given up following Brexit these days but hasn't Labour's initial outline for their Brexit been seen by the EU and agreed to work in principle?.



Nope don’t think so - Labs deal is still based on Unicorns.

They reacted positively earlier in the year when Corbyn offered to meet May and set some preconditions. But it was along the lines of ‘Great cross party solutions are the way out of this!’

That quickly became the EU loves Corbyns plan, it’s the solution, why don’t people let magic grandpa save us etc

I know that Labour (Keir Starmer) had the beginnings of their Brexit plan outlined in front of Michel Barnier and co. While it wasn't a final deal (obviously) it was reported that the EU side had saw favourably as a good starting point. This was those "unicorns" you're talking about. It was around the time Theresa May unveiled her Brexit plan, where her red lines made it impossible to get her deal through parliament.


Any sources?

Best I can see is this

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc. ... s-45660640

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BID0
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by BID0 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:18 pm

Hexx wrote:
BID0 wrote:
Hexx wrote:
BID0 wrote:I've given up following Brexit these days but hasn't Labour's initial outline for their Brexit been seen by the EU and agreed to work in principle?.



Nope don’t think so - Labs deal is still based on Unicorns.

They reacted positively earlier in the year when Corbyn offered to meet May and set some preconditions. But it was along the lines of ‘Great cross party solutions are the way out of this!’

That quickly became the EU loves Corbyns plan, it’s the solution, why don’t people let magic grandpa save us etc

I know that Labour (Keir Starmer) had the beginnings of their Brexit plan outlined in front of Michel Barnier and co. While it wasn't a final deal (obviously) it was reported that the EU side had saw favourably as a good starting point. This was those "unicorns" you're talking about. It was around the time Theresa May unveiled her Brexit plan, where her red lines made it impossible to get her deal through parliament.


Any sources?

Best I can see is this

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc. ... s-45660640

Yeh it's hard to find anything because it was over a year ago. There is this from this February regarding Corbyn's letter to May after his discussion in Europe and when Theresa May was "open" to working with Labour on a deal:

"I found Corbyn's letter interesting in tone and in content," Mr Barnier said of the Labour leader's Brexit proposals, sent to Mrs May.

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2019/021 ... t-ireland/

I can only find excerpts of the letter but it's mostly about keeping access to the market and freedom of movement etc as red lines.

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Tomous
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Tomous » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:21 pm

Samuel_1 wrote:
Tomous wrote:
Hexx wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Hyperion wrote:I mean strawberry floating hell Labour fudge upon fudge

They're backing a confirmatory vote, that's good news, isn't it?


"We support Remain while we're in opposition, but Leave if we get into power"

:slol:



So the solution for Remain voters is to vote Tory so Labour stay as the opposition and support remain.

Bravo Jeremy, bravo.

No, they say they will try to get a deal if they gain power and then offer this deal or remain in a referendum.


Where has he said that?

Everything I've read today has suggested Corbyn hasn't said what he would do in the event of winning a GE.

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Hexx
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Hexx » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:22 pm

BID0 wrote:
Hexx wrote:
BID0 wrote:
Hexx wrote:
BID0 wrote:I've given up following Brexit these days but hasn't Labour's initial outline for their Brexit been seen by the EU and agreed to work in principle?.



Nope don’t think so - Labs deal is still based on Unicorns.

They reacted positively earlier in the year when Corbyn offered to meet May and set some preconditions. But it was along the lines of ‘Great cross party solutions are the way out of this!’

That quickly became the EU loves Corbyns plan, it’s the solution, why don’t people let magic grandpa save us etc

I know that Labour (Keir Starmer) had the beginnings of their Brexit plan outlined in front of Michel Barnier and co. While it wasn't a final deal (obviously) it was reported that the EU side had saw favourably as a good starting point. This was those "unicorns" you're talking about. It was around the time Theresa May unveiled her Brexit plan, where her red lines made it impossible to get her deal through parliament.


Any sources?

Best I can see is this

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc. ... s-45660640

Yeh it's hard to find anything because it was over a year ago. There is this from this February regarding Corbyn's letter to May after his discussion in Europe and when Theresa May was "open" to working with Labour on a deal:

"I found Corbyn's letter interesting in tone and in content," Mr Barnier said of the Labour leader's Brexit proposals, sent to Mrs May.

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2019/021 ... t-ireland/

I can only find excerpts of the letter but it's mostly about keeping access to the market and freedom of movement etc as red lines.


So yeah

They reacted positively earlier in the year when Corbyn offered to meet May and set some preconditions. But it was along the lines of ‘Great cross party solutions are the way out of this!’


And hasn't Labour's initial outline for their Brexit been seen by the EU and agreed to work in principle?


Isn't really true (because Lab approach to FoM, "a say" on trade deals etc all remain....nebulous unicorns)

I don't think you're being too positive about the EU's view on the plan, but it seems to have become a myth among Corbyn fan's the EU has been vocally praising it... :fp:

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Samuel_1
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Samuel_1 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:24 pm

Tomous wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Tomous wrote:
Hexx wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Hyperion wrote:I mean strawberry floating hell Labour fudge upon fudge

They're backing a confirmatory vote, that's good news, isn't it?


"We support Remain while we're in opposition, but Leave if we get into power"

:slol:



So the solution for Remain voters is to vote Tory so Labour stay as the opposition and support remain.

Bravo Jeremy, bravo.

No, they say they will try to get a deal if they gain power and then offer this deal or remain in a referendum.


Where has he said that?

Everything I've read today has suggested Corbyn hasn't said what he would do in the event of winning a GE.

Near the top of page 564.

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Hexx
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Hexx » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:27 pm

Tomous wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Tomous wrote:
Hexx wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Hyperion wrote:I mean strawberry floating hell Labour fudge upon fudge

They're backing a confirmatory vote, that's good news, isn't it?


"We support Remain while we're in opposition, but Leave if we get into power"

:slol:



So the solution for Remain voters is to vote Tory so Labour stay as the opposition and support remain.

Bravo Jeremy, bravo.

No, they say they will try to get a deal if they gain power and then offer this deal or remain in a referendum.


Where has he said that?

Everything I've read today has suggested Corbyn hasn't said what he would do in the event of winning a GE.


Tory deal* - Lab want a 2nd Referendum on it with Remain as an option, Lab will campaign for Remain
Lab deal (after GE) - Lab want a 2nd Referendum with Remain as an option, Lab will campaign for any deal they ultimately agree with the EU, or remain depending on their deal


(*Originally this was announced as ANY Tory Deal, Corbyn's letter today makes it only a certain type of Tory deal. That might just be him being a gooseberry fool communicator though given the motions agreed last night)

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BID0
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Location: Essex

PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by BID0 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:35 pm

Hexx wrote:
BID0 wrote:
Hexx wrote:
BID0 wrote:
Hexx wrote:
BID0 wrote:I've given up following Brexit these days but hasn't Labour's initial outline for their Brexit been seen by the EU and agreed to work in principle?.



Nope don’t think so - Labs deal is still based on Unicorns.

They reacted positively earlier in the year when Corbyn offered to meet May and set some preconditions. But it was along the lines of ‘Great cross party solutions are the way out of this!’

That quickly became the EU loves Corbyns plan, it’s the solution, why don’t people let magic grandpa save us etc

I know that Labour (Keir Starmer) had the beginnings of their Brexit plan outlined in front of Michel Barnier and co. While it wasn't a final deal (obviously) it was reported that the EU side had saw favourably as a good starting point. This was those "unicorns" you're talking about. It was around the time Theresa May unveiled her Brexit plan, where her red lines made it impossible to get her deal through parliament.


Any sources?

Best I can see is this

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc. ... s-45660640

Yeh it's hard to find anything because it was over a year ago. There is this from this February regarding Corbyn's letter to May after his discussion in Europe and when Theresa May was "open" to working with Labour on a deal:

"I found Corbyn's letter interesting in tone and in content," Mr Barnier said of the Labour leader's Brexit proposals, sent to Mrs May.

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2019/021 ... t-ireland/

I can only find excerpts of the letter but it's mostly about keeping access to the market and freedom of movement etc as red lines.


So yeah

They reacted positively earlier in the year when Corbyn offered to meet May and set some preconditions. But it was along the lines of ‘Great cross party solutions are the way out of this!’


And hasn't Labour's initial outline for their Brexit been seen by the EU and agreed to work in principle?


Isn't really true (because Lab approach to FoM, "a say" on trade deals etc all remain....nebulous unicorns)

I don't think you're being too positive about the EU's view on the plan, but it seems to have become a myth among Corbyn fan's the EU has been vocally praising it... :fp:

I think part of the problem is that the EU probably do not want to see as favouring an opposition etc as it would appear to be they are meddling in a sovereign nations affairs. The negotiating team as well as other sovereign nations have often reiterated they'd favour an outcome where the UK would be part of EU trade in some way rather than crashing out. Labours red lines are almost the opposite of Theresa May's though and so you would get a much different "deal" as a result (Theresa May's red lines didn't leave much wiggle room for anything).

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Hexx
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Hexx » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:44 pm

BID0 wrote:
Hexx wrote:
BID0 wrote:
Hexx wrote:
BID0 wrote:
Hexx wrote:
BID0 wrote:I've given up following Brexit these days but hasn't Labour's initial outline for their Brexit been seen by the EU and agreed to work in principle?.



Nope don’t think so - Labs deal is still based on Unicorns.

They reacted positively earlier in the year when Corbyn offered to meet May and set some preconditions. But it was along the lines of ‘Great cross party solutions are the way out of this!’

That quickly became the EU loves Corbyns plan, it’s the solution, why don’t people let magic grandpa save us etc

I know that Labour (Keir Starmer) had the beginnings of their Brexit plan outlined in front of Michel Barnier and co. While it wasn't a final deal (obviously) it was reported that the EU side had saw favourably as a good starting point. This was those "unicorns" you're talking about. It was around the time Theresa May unveiled her Brexit plan, where her red lines made it impossible to get her deal through parliament.


Any sources?

Best I can see is this

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc. ... s-45660640

Yeh it's hard to find anything because it was over a year ago. There is this from this February regarding Corbyn's letter to May after his discussion in Europe and when Theresa May was "open" to working with Labour on a deal:

"I found Corbyn's letter interesting in tone and in content," Mr Barnier said of the Labour leader's Brexit proposals, sent to Mrs May.

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2019/021 ... t-ireland/

I can only find excerpts of the letter but it's mostly about keeping access to the market and freedom of movement etc as red lines.


So yeah

They reacted positively earlier in the year when Corbyn offered to meet May and set some preconditions. But it was along the lines of ‘Great cross party solutions are the way out of this!’


And hasn't Labour's initial outline for their Brexit been seen by the EU and agreed to work in principle?


Isn't really true (because Lab approach to FoM, "a say" on trade deals etc all remain....nebulous unicorns)

I don't think you're being too positive about the EU's view on the plan, but it seems to have become a myth among Corbyn fan's the EU has been vocally praising it... :fp:

I think part of the problem is that the EU probably do not want to see as favouring an opposition etc as it would appear to be they are meddling in a sovereign nations affairs. The negotiating team as well as other sovereign nations have often reiterated they'd favour an outcome where the UK would be part of EU trade in some way rather than crashing out. Labours red lines are almost the opposite of Theresa May's though and so you would get a much different "deal" as a result (Theresa May's red lines didn't leave much wiggle room for anything).


They really really aren't really.

https://labour.org.uk/issues/labours-plan-brexit/
https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/negotiating-brexit/

Ending Freedom of Movement is still there. (And it's killer)
A new style "special deal" customs union is still there - with some fudge over single market. (And somehow still ending freedom of Movement)
They want to leave the EU but "opt in" to loads of programmed, facilities and project that they like
They want to leave the EU, create their own trade deals, but still somehow have "a say" in EU trade deals
etc

Even where some of the lines may be somewhat different - they have the same end result ("Jog on with your Cakeism")

It's just a different breed of Unicorn.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:48 pm

Hexx wrote:It's just a different breed of Unicorn.


It’s actually the same breed, but in line with socialist principles they have cut off the horn so that the bourgeois unicorn looks the same as the prole horses.

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BID0
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by BID0 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:53 pm

I'm surprised by FoM red line, I've never heard that one until now. Especially as they are keen to stress there can be no border on the island of Ireland. It'd also make it impossible for anyone on Gibraltar to do... anything :lol:

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Samuel_1
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Samuel_1 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:56 pm

Moggy wrote:
Hexx wrote:It's just a different breed of Unicorn.


It’s actually the same breed, but in line with socialist principles they have cut off the horn so that the bourgeois unicorn looks the same as the prole horses.

Well, if Labour do win a GE, put their deal to the EU and it's rejected, doesnt that lead us automatically into a second ref? And if your assumptions are true about the vote, that will mean remain. I'm OK with that.

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Tomous
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Tomous » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:01 pm

Samuel_1 wrote:
Tomous wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Tomous wrote:
Hexx wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Hyperion wrote:I mean strawberry floating hell Labour fudge upon fudge

They're backing a confirmatory vote, that's good news, isn't it?


"We support Remain while we're in opposition, but Leave if we get into power"

:slol:



So the solution for Remain voters is to vote Tory so Labour stay as the opposition and support remain.

Bravo Jeremy, bravo.

No, they say they will try to get a deal if they gain power and then offer this deal or remain in a referendum.


Where has he said that?

Everything I've read today has suggested Corbyn hasn't said what he would do in the event of winning a GE.

Near the top of page 564.


Ok, but Corbyn hasn't actually said that and committed to it yet has he?

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Hexx
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Hexx » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:02 pm

BID0 wrote:I'm surprised by FoM red line, I've never heard that one until now. Especially as they are keen to stress there can be no border on the island of Ireland. It'd also make it impossible for anyone on Gibraltar to do... anything :lol:


They've been really cagey about it. (Sorry some would say it's "constructive ambiguity")

Immigration

Labour offers fair rules and reasonable management of migration. In trade negotiations our priorities favour growth, jobs and prosperity. We make no apologies for putting these aims before bogus immigration targets.

Freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union [Hexx's bolding]. Britain’s immigration system will change, but Labour will not scapegoat migrants nor blame them for economic failures.

Labour will develop and implement fair immigration rules. We will not discriminate between people of different races or creeds. We will end indefinite detentions and distinguish between migrant labour and family attachment and will continue to support the work of the Forced Marriage Unit. We will replace income thresholds with a prohibition on recourse to public funds. New rules will be equally informed by negotiations with the EU and other partners, including the Commonwealth.

Whatever our trade arrangements, we will need new migration management systems, transparent and fair to everybody.


Now...you could read that as "Freedom of Movement will end. We will not have it in the future". Which will scupper lots of possible deals due to the indivisible (ish :shifty: ) four freedoms.

This is what a lot of Lab critics use to call out Lab's Unicorns "Dream on you'll never get a deal you claim you can without all 4 freedoms")

Lab's defends (I'm trying to be fair here, but you might want to look up a less opinionated summary :P) claim it's right.

Freedom of Movement WILL end when Leave the EU. That's a pedantic fact. We've left the treaty(ies?) that enabled it. But Lab obviously will then negotiate something new, different and just as good, that's just the same, so the 4 freedoms will apply, then can get those amazing deals that aren't in anyway cakeism and they can't just say "Freedom of Movement will Continue" because of the 4D chess they're playing. (Curiously this "will end" phrasing is only used here, and not on any other aspect ;))


I tried to be fair but I don't think I pulled it fully off :slol:

Last edited by Hexx on Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Samuel_1
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Samuel_1 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:02 pm

Tomous wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Tomous wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Tomous wrote:
Hexx wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Hyperion wrote:I mean strawberry floating hell Labour fudge upon fudge

They're backing a confirmatory vote, that's good news, isn't it?


"We support Remain while we're in opposition, but Leave if we get into power"

:slol:



So the solution for Remain voters is to vote Tory so Labour stay as the opposition and support remain.

Bravo Jeremy, bravo.

No, they say they will try to get a deal if they gain power and then offer this deal or remain in a referendum.


Where has he said that?

Everything I've read today has suggested Corbyn hasn't said what he would do in the event of winning a GE.

Near the top of page 564.


Ok, but Corbyn hasn't actually said that and committed to it yet has he?

As far as I know this is the agreement thrashed out with the unions.

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