Brexit Thread 2

Fed up talking videogames? Why?

How would you vote if we had to vote again?

Leave
12
7%
Remain
159
93%
 
Total votes: 171
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Lagamorph
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Lagamorph » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:04 pm

BID0 wrote:I've given up following Brexit these days but hasn't Labour's initial outline for their Brexit been seen by the EU and agreed to work in principle? It would be more like a Norway deal that would allow for access to the markets and workforce, thus protecting jobs?

Or did the Labour Brexit plan change since the EU looked at it?

And a referendum on that seems logical to me because like the Tory deal, no deal and every other favour of Brexit there as been (including remain), there is no majority in Parliament so it needs to be decided by a referendum.

Labour (Well, Corbyn) still wants to negotiate on Freedom of Movement, which basically throws out anything more than May's deal.

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Turboman wrote:Lagomorph..... Is ..... Right
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Hexx
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Hexx » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:08 pm

Tomous wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Tomous wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Tomous wrote:
Hexx wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Hyperion wrote:I mean strawberry floating hell Labour fudge upon fudge

They're backing a confirmatory vote, that's good news, isn't it?


"We support Remain while we're in opposition, but Leave if we get into power"

:slol:



So the solution for Remain voters is to vote Tory so Labour stay as the opposition and support remain.

Bravo Jeremy, bravo.

No, they say they will try to get a deal if they gain power and then offer this deal or remain in a referendum.


Where has he said that?

Everything I've read today has suggested Corbyn hasn't said what he would do in the event of winning a GE.

Near the top of page 564.


Ok, but Corbyn hasn't actually said that and committed to it yet has he?


Dear member,

I am proud to lead the Labour Party – the greatest political party and social movement in this country.

We all recognise that the issue of Brexit has been divisive in our communities and sometimes in our party too.

As democrats, Labour accepted the result of the 2016 referendum. In our 2017 manifesto, Labour also committed to oppose a No Deal Brexit and the Tories’ Brexit plans – which threatened jobs, living standards, and the open multicultural society that we as internationalists value so much.

I want to pay tribute to Keir Starmer and the shadow Brexit team for holding the Government to account during this process. That helped secure a meaningful vote on their deal – which we then defeated three times – including inflicting the largest ever defeat on any Government. And following their refusal to publish their legal advice, this Government became the first to be held in contempt of Parliament.

Labour set out a compromise plan to try to bring the country together based around a customs union, a strong single market relationship and protection of environmental regulations and rights at work. We continue to believe this is a sensible alternative that could bring the country together.

But the Prime Minister refused to compromise and was unable to deliver, so we ended cross-party talks.

Now both Tory leadership candidates are threatening a No Deal Brexit - or at best a race to the bottom and a sweetheart deal with Donald Trump: that runs down industry, opens up our NHS and other public services to yet more privatisation, and shreds environmental protections, rights at work and consumer standards.

I have spent the past few weeks consulting with the shadow cabinet, MPs, affiliated unions and the NEC. I have also had feedback from members via the National Policy Forum consultation on Brexit.

Whoever becomes the new Prime Minister should have the confidence to put their deal, or No Deal, back to the people in a public vote.

In those circumstances, I want to make it clear that Labour would campaign for Remain against either No Deal or a Tory deal that does not protect the economy and jobs.

Labour has a crucial, historic duty to safeguard jobs, rights and living standards. But no Brexit outcome alone can do that.

We need a general election. After nine years of austerity, too many people in this country cannot find decent secure well-paid work, and have to rely on public services that have been severely cut back.

Our country is ravaged by inequality and rising poverty, huge regional imbalances of investment, and the government is failing to tackle the climate emergency facing us all.

That is why we need a Labour government to end austerity and rebuild our country for the many not the jew.

Yours,

Jeremy Corbyn


You're right - he's avoided explicitly saying that here, with the implication being only the 2 Tory Candidates votes should be put to deal - but that's just him being evasive/shifty/gooseberry fool at communicating again. The motions last night are pretty clear

Edit -



The 2nd bullet point in third question says "Any deal"

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Lagamorph
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Lagamorph » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:45 pm




Lagamorph's Underwater Photography Thread
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Turboman wrote:Lagomorph..... Is ..... Right
tolrag
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Joined in 2011

PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by tolrag » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:13 pm

Hexx wrote:
Tomous wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Tomous wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Tomous wrote:
Hexx wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Hyperion wrote:I mean strawberry floating hell Labour fudge upon fudge

They're backing a confirmatory vote, that's good news, isn't it?


"We support Remain while we're in opposition, but Leave if we get into power"

:slol:



So the solution for Remain voters is to vote Tory so Labour stay as the opposition and support remain.

Bravo Jeremy, bravo.

No, they say they will try to get a deal if they gain power and then offer this deal or remain in a referendum.


Where has he said that?

Everything I've read today has suggested Corbyn hasn't said what he would do in the event of winning a GE.

Near the top of page 564.


Ok, but Corbyn hasn't actually said that and committed to it yet has he?


Dear member,

I am proud to lead the Labour Party – the greatest political party and social movement in this country.

We all recognise that the issue of Brexit has been divisive in our communities and sometimes in our party too.

As democrats, Labour accepted the result of the 2016 referendum. In our 2017 manifesto, Labour also committed to oppose a No Deal Brexit and the Tories’ Brexit plans – which threatened jobs, living standards, and the open multicultural society that we as internationalists value so much.

I want to pay tribute to Keir Starmer and the shadow Brexit team for holding the Government to account during this process. That helped secure a meaningful vote on their deal – which we then defeated three times – including inflicting the largest ever defeat on any Government. And following their refusal to publish their legal advice, this Government became the first to be held in contempt of Parliament.

Labour set out a compromise plan to try to bring the country together based around a customs union, a strong single market relationship and protection of environmental regulations and rights at work. We continue to believe this is a sensible alternative that could bring the country together.

But the Prime Minister refused to compromise and was unable to deliver, so we ended cross-party talks.

Now both Tory leadership candidates are threatening a No Deal Brexit - or at best a race to the bottom and a sweetheart deal with Donald Trump: that runs down industry, opens up our NHS and other public services to yet more privatisation, and shreds environmental protections, rights at work and consumer standards.

I have spent the past few weeks consulting with the shadow cabinet, MPs, affiliated unions and the NEC. I have also had feedback from members via the National Policy Forum consultation on Brexit.

Whoever becomes the new Prime Minister should have the confidence to put their deal, or No Deal, back to the people in a public vote.

In those circumstances, I want to make it clear that Labour would campaign for Remain against either No Deal or a Tory deal that does not protect the economy and jobs.

Labour has a crucial, historic duty to safeguard jobs, rights and living standards. But no Brexit outcome alone can do that.

We need a general election. After nine years of austerity, too many people in this country cannot find decent secure well-paid work, and have to rely on public services that have been severely cut back.

Our country is ravaged by inequality and rising poverty, huge regional imbalances of investment, and the government is failing to tackle the climate emergency facing us all.

That is why we need a Labour government to end austerity and rebuild our country for the many not the jew.

Yours,

Jeremy Corbyn


You're right - he's avoided explicitly saying that here, with the implication being only the 2 Tory Candidates votes should be put to deal - but that's just him being evasive/shifty/gooseberry fool at communicating again. The motions last night are pretty clear

Edit -



The 2nd bullet point in third question says "Any deal"


Did he really write it like that? Even as a typo that's not a good look for him at the moment.

(edit: read bold/underlined bit carefully)

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:15 pm

Lagamorph wrote:



Good news but pretty bloody scary that 293 MPs don’t give a strawberry float about Parliamentary democracy.

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Hexx
Member
Joined in 2008

PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Hexx » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:18 pm

tolrag wrote:
Hexx wrote:
Tomous wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Tomous wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Tomous wrote:
Hexx wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Hyperion wrote:I mean strawberry floating hell Labour fudge upon fudge

They're backing a confirmatory vote, that's good news, isn't it?


"We support Remain while we're in opposition, but Leave if we get into power"

:slol:



So the solution for Remain voters is to vote Tory so Labour stay as the opposition and support remain.

Bravo Jeremy, bravo.

No, they say they will try to get a deal if they gain power and then offer this deal or remain in a referendum.


Where has he said that?

Everything I've read today has suggested Corbyn hasn't said what he would do in the event of winning a GE.

Near the top of page 564.


Ok, but Corbyn hasn't actually said that and committed to it yet has he?


Dear member,

I am proud to lead the Labour Party – the greatest political party and social movement in this country.

We all recognise that the issue of Brexit has been divisive in our communities and sometimes in our party too.

As democrats, Labour accepted the result of the 2016 referendum. In our 2017 manifesto, Labour also committed to oppose a No Deal Brexit and the Tories’ Brexit plans – which threatened jobs, living standards, and the open multicultural society that we as internationalists value so much.

I want to pay tribute to Keir Starmer and the shadow Brexit team for holding the Government to account during this process. That helped secure a meaningful vote on their deal – which we then defeated three times – including inflicting the largest ever defeat on any Government. And following their refusal to publish their legal advice, this Government became the first to be held in contempt of Parliament.

Labour set out a compromise plan to try to bring the country together based around a customs union, a strong single market relationship and protection of environmental regulations and rights at work. We continue to believe this is a sensible alternative that could bring the country together.

But the Prime Minister refused to compromise and was unable to deliver, so we ended cross-party talks.

Now both Tory leadership candidates are threatening a No Deal Brexit - or at best a race to the bottom and a sweetheart deal with Donald Trump: that runs down industry, opens up our NHS and other public services to yet more privatisation, and shreds environmental protections, rights at work and consumer standards.

I have spent the past few weeks consulting with the shadow cabinet, MPs, affiliated unions and the NEC. I have also had feedback from members via the National Policy Forum consultation on Brexit.

Whoever becomes the new Prime Minister should have the confidence to put their deal, or No Deal, back to the people in a public vote.

In those circumstances, I want to make it clear that Labour would campaign for Remain against either No Deal or a Tory deal that does not protect the economy and jobs.

Labour has a crucial, historic duty to safeguard jobs, rights and living standards. But no Brexit outcome alone can do that.

We need a general election. After nine years of austerity, too many people in this country cannot find decent secure well-paid work, and have to rely on public services that have been severely cut back.

Our country is ravaged by inequality and rising poverty, huge regional imbalances of investment, and the government is failing to tackle the climate emergency facing us all.

That is why we need a Labour government to end austerity and rebuild our country for the many not the jew.

Yours,

Jeremy Corbyn


You're right - he's avoided explicitly saying that here, with the implication being only the 2 Tory Candidates votes should be put to deal - but that's just him being evasive/shifty/gooseberry fool at communicating again. The motions last night are pretty clear

Edit -



The 2nd bullet point in third question says "Any deal"


Did he really write it like that? Even as a typo that's not a good look for him at the moment.

(edit: read bold/underlined bit carefully)


:shifty:

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:23 pm



“Let’s leave our powerful position in the world’s biggest trading bloc and rely on handouts from a manchild!”

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Photek
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Photek » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:25 pm

So Boris now technically can’t leave with no deal? Or am I missing something?

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Errkal
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Errkal » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:27 pm

Photek wrote:So Boris now technically can’t leave with no deal? Or am I missing something?

He could still leave with no deal, but he can’t close parliament to prevent them from stopping him.

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Garth
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Garth » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:33 pm

Moggy wrote:

“Let’s leave our powerful position in the world’s biggest trading bloc and rely on handouts from a manchild!”

Mr Fox was dispatched on Tuesday to apologise directly to Mr Trump's adult daughter, Ivanka Trump

:|

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Photek
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Location: Dublin

PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Photek » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:34 pm

But parliament will stop him... right? Sorry it’s confusing at times from this side of the Irish Sea.

Also why is Ivanka Trump talking to Liam Fox?

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:38 pm

Photek wrote:But parliament will stop him... right? Sorry it’s confusing at times from this side of the Irish Sea.

Also why is Ivanka Trump talking to Liam Fox?


Parliament is expected to block No Deal. But there are no guarantees.

Fox is talking to Ivanka because the world has gone strawberry floating mental.

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Errkal
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Location: Hastings

PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Errkal » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:44 pm

Moggy wrote:
Lagamorph wrote:



Good news but pretty bloody scary that 293 MPs don’t give a strawberry float about Parliamentary democracy.

They do care, they care enough to let let the will of the people play out!

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Lex-Man
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Lex-Man » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:58 pm

Moggy wrote:
Photek wrote:But parliament will stop him... right? Sorry it’s confusing at times from this side of the Irish Sea.

Also why is Ivanka Trump talking to Liam Fox?


Parliament is expected to block No Deal. But there are no guarantees.

Fox is talking to Ivanka because the world has gone strawberry floating mental.


Presumably Boris could still default out of the EU on the 31st but this makes it a bit harder for him. Presumably he could still refuse to ask the EU for an extension, it might get him booted out on a vote of no confidence though.

Amusement under late capitalism is the prolongation of work.
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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:08 pm

Lex-Man wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Photek wrote:But parliament will stop him... right? Sorry it’s confusing at times from this side of the Irish Sea.

Also why is Ivanka Trump talking to Liam Fox?


Parliament is expected to block No Deal. But there are no guarantees.

Fox is talking to Ivanka because the world has gone strawberry floating mental.


Presumably Boris could still default out of the EU on the 31st but this makes it a bit harder for him. Presumably he could still refuse to ask the EU for an extension, it might get him booted out on a vote of no confidence though.


That’s one way of doing it. He’d be in bloody hot water if Parliament voted for an extension and he refused though.

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Lex-Man
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Lex-Man » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:56 pm

Moggy wrote:
Lex-Man wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Photek wrote:But parliament will stop him... right? Sorry it’s confusing at times from this side of the Irish Sea.

Also why is Ivanka Trump talking to Liam Fox?


Parliament is expected to block No Deal. But there are no guarantees.

Fox is talking to Ivanka because the world has gone strawberry floating mental.


Presumably Boris could still default out of the EU on the 31st but this makes it a bit harder for him. Presumably he could still refuse to ask the EU for an extension, it might get him booted out on a vote of no confidence though.


That’s one way of doing it. He’d be in bloody hot water if Parliament voted for an extension and he refused though.


My thought was that if he was going to do that he could try and jump to the Brexit party and try and rally the pro-Brexit vote around him. Although this would mean that Farage would have to step down as leader and Boris would have to be prepared to leave the Tories. I can't see it happening, my guess he'll end up in the same place as May.

Amusement under late capitalism is the prolongation of work.
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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:00 pm

Lex-Man wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Lex-Man wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Photek wrote:But parliament will stop him... right? Sorry it’s confusing at times from this side of the Irish Sea.

Also why is Ivanka Trump talking to Liam Fox?


Parliament is expected to block No Deal. But there are no guarantees.

Fox is talking to Ivanka because the world has gone strawberry floating mental.


Presumably Boris could still default out of the EU on the 31st but this makes it a bit harder for him. Presumably he could still refuse to ask the EU for an extension, it might get him booted out on a vote of no confidence though.


That’s one way of doing it. He’d be in bloody hot water if Parliament voted for an extension and he refused though.


My thought was that if he was going to do that he could try and jump to the Brexit party and try and rally the pro-Brexit vote around him. Although this would mean that Farage would have to step down as leader and Boris would have to be prepared to leave the Tories. I can't see it happening, my guess he'll end up in the same place as May.


Yeah I can’t see that happening. He’ll already be an “unelected” PM, jumping party isn’t going to improve things for him as he’ll no longer be PM.

Parliament blocking it would be the best thing for Johnson. He gets to avoid actually having to go through with No Deal and can blame it on the other MPs. His credentials with hard Leavers will remain intact while allowing him to move to a different path.

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Lex-Man
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Lex-Man » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:03 pm

Moggy wrote:
Lex-Man wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Lex-Man wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Photek wrote:But parliament will stop him... right? Sorry it’s confusing at times from this side of the Irish Sea.

Also why is Ivanka Trump talking to Liam Fox?


Parliament is expected to block No Deal. But there are no guarantees.

Fox is talking to Ivanka because the world has gone strawberry floating mental.


Presumably Boris could still default out of the EU on the 31st but this makes it a bit harder for him. Presumably he could still refuse to ask the EU for an extension, it might get him booted out on a vote of no confidence though.


That’s one way of doing it. He’d be in bloody hot water if Parliament voted for an extension and he refused though.


My thought was that if he was going to do that he could try and jump to the Brexit party and try and rally the pro-Brexit vote around him. Although this would mean that Farage would have to step down as leader and Boris would have to be prepared to leave the Tories. I can't see it happening, my guess he'll end up in the same place as May.


Yeah I can’t see that happening. He’ll already be an “unelected” PM, jumping party isn’t going to improve things for him as he’ll no longer be PM.

Parliament blocking it would be the best thing for Johnson. He gets to avoid actually having to go through with No Deal and can blame it on the other MPs. His credentials with hard Leavers will remain intact while allowing him to move to a different path.


He'll probably do another all nighter in Afghanistan if it comes down to a vote.

Amusement under late capitalism is the prolongation of work.
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Hexx
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Hexx » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:08 pm

Dorroach resigned. Brexiteer leaker should be put on trial for treason.

Boris is a complete wimp at the mere prospect to stand up to Trump. Little Man for insecure little Englanders.

God. Just when you think Leavers can't get any more contemptable they find a way to surprise you.

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Rex Kramer
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Rex Kramer » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:19 pm

If they'll throw one of the most senior UK diplomats under a bus to placate the Americans then just imagine what they'll do to Joe Public.


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