Brexit Thread 2

[jawafour]

The result probably would have been different if everyone had voted, but without compulsory voting it is never going to happen.

Yep. I am not a fan of compulsory voting; I believe that a person should recognise the importance of voting and understand the role that they can play. In "forcing" people to vote, it is possible that free-thinking and responsibility could be damaged.

[Moggy]

The result probably would have been different if everyone had voted, but without compulsory voting it is never going to happen.

Yep. I am not a fan of compulsory voting; I believe that a person should recognise the importance of voting and understand the role that they can play. In "forcing" people to vote, it is possible that free-thinking and responsibility could be damaged.

I could be persuaded that in a referendum we should have compulsory voting, but as OR says it might be best if the apathetic and ignorant don’t bother.

[Tomous]

Forcing the apathetic to vote in a referendum would just lead to “rebel” votes because they’re pissed off.

[Hexx]

An interesting take on whataboutism

I blame the people who wouldn't get on the minibus more than those who drove it off a cliff.

[That]

@OrangeRKN: Sorry for not doing a more thorough response, but I think this is the crux of it:

...It's the existence of a greater "other" that brings the community together...

I understand that this is an aspect of community-building at this stage in our cultural evolution, but it genuinely horrifies me. I think we will eventually out-grow that urge. It's not necessary to put others down to connect with your own community.

Sounds like a more optimistic view than I have, but (honestly not just trying to catch you out) when you call it an "urge" is that not an acknowledgment of it being a natural (and inherent) aspect of humanity?

I don't disagree that it's a bad aspect, but my argument is that it's much easier to manage such tendencies by redirecting them into harmless areas (team sports), than it is to try and unlearn them. I guess that your counter-argument is that encouraging tribalism in team sports counteracts attempts to unlearn it as a whole. I see the logic, but I don't think it's a pragmatic approach.

Well, I don't feel it's so hardwired that we simply couldn't ever hope to escape it, but of course I recognise its basis in instinct and that it currently is an aspect of community building.

There are a lot of animalistic / barbaric behaviours we overcome through education and social pressure. I guess I just don't think encouraging an exact mirror of bigotry (but with teams in place of ethnicity, gender, etc.) is good enough to settle for. All the bullying is still there, and too often it is a direct proxy for actual bigotry (e.g. an acceptable way to express and reinforce racism).

I'm happy you like hockey or whatever and I'm sure most sports fans are perfectly nice about it, but the psychology of it all is a bit gross to me. (I mean, it's fine, I just know not to engage with it...)

[Moggy]

Can anybody explain why the People’s Vote group don’t want a second referendum to pass? Their statement says it is not yet the time, but with 15 days to go and no guarantee of another chance, why wouldn’t they go for it?

[Tomous]

Can anybody explain why the People’s Vote group don’t want a second referendum to pass? Their statement says it is not yet the time, but with 15 days to go and no guarantee of another chance, why wouldn’t they go for it?

Confused on this also. I can understand them not wanting to do the motion for a second referendum now because they don't believe the timing is right, but if it's going ahead, I can't understand why they wouldn't want it to pass.

[jawafour]

An interesting take on whataboutism

I blame the people who wouldn't get on the minibus more than those who drove it off a cliff.

I am just surprised that a fair number of people didn't vote. It was clear that the decision was important and, yes, I am frustrated by folk who didn't make an effort to develop a viewpoint and place a vote.

Can anybody explain why the People’s Vote group don’t want a second referendum to pass? Their statement says it is not yet the time, but with 15 days to go and no guarantee of another chance, why wouldn’t they go for it?

I, too, am baffled by this. Presumably they're waiting until the last possible moment as they feel that all other options won't be taken forward.

[Moggy]

Can anybody explain why the People’s Vote group don’t want a second referendum to pass? Their statement says it is not yet the time, but with 15 days to go and no guarantee of another chance, why wouldn’t they go for it?

Confused on this also. I can understand them not wanting to do the motion for a second referendum now because they don't believe the timing is right, but if it's going ahead, I can't understand why they wouldn't want it to pass.

It’s utterly bizarre. Even if they are expecting to lose it (and it will almost certainly fail) it would be good to get some strong backing for it.

There might not ever be another chance of getting another referendum, we need to try and get it at every possible opportunity.

[Moggy]

I, too, am baffled by this. Presumably they're waiting until the last possible moment as they feel that all other options won't be taken forward.

At the last possible moment Parliament is more likely to grab May’s deal than a referendum.

The People’s Vote people are strawberry floating idiots.

[Hexx]

Can anybody explain why the People’s Vote group don’t want a second referendum to pass? Their statement says it is not yet the time, but with 15 days to go and no guarantee of another chance, why wouldn’t they go for it?

Confused on this also. I can understand them not wanting to do the motion for a second referendum now because they don't believe the timing is right, but if it's going ahead, I can't understand why they wouldn't want it to pass.

Because they think it wont pass - and they think/know Brexiteer will try and use it to shut down any further attempts to obtain one on any terms (some have already said they support the vote)

They think the one of only ways to get majority to support a PV is "May's Deal" versus "Remain" - the only way May's deal will pass, they think, in Meaningful Vote 29857 is if caveated to a Referendum (Lab btw are very clear if they get their compromise deal that doesn't need a 2nd Referendum. Only May/Unacceptable to them deals do)

[Tomous]

Because they think it wont pass - and they think/know Brexiteer will try and use it to shut down any further attempts to obtain one on any terms (some have already said they support the vote)

In a world where they're going to vote AGAIN on May's deal next week for a third time, I don't see how that argument can have any traction at all.

[Hexx]

Because they think it wont pass - and they think/know Brexiteer will try and use it to shut down any further attempts to obtain one on any terms (some have already said they support the vote)

In a world where they're going to vote AGAIN on May's deal next week for a third time, I don't see how that argument can have any traction at all.

Since when have Brexiteers argued with any consistency or rationality?

[Hexx]

The problem is the "People's vote" group (both the actual group and more widely anyone interested in one) is such a desperate group with different agendas and plans. Some are Remain, some are soft Brexit, some are to validate May's Brexit etc They've never coalesced into an actual strategy or plan to achieve their goal.

Plus there's whatever the strawberry float Labor are doing on any given day of the week.

[jawafour]

At the last possible moment Parliament is more likely to grab May’s deal than a referendum.

The People’s Vote people are strawberry floating idiots.

I do feel that the outcome - whatever it may be - won't be decided until the last moments; from a negotiating perspective, the EU won't want the agreement to look too positive or to be agreed too smoothly; else other member countries may then seek a similar outcome in the future.

For clarity, I am not deriding the EU approach; it's just expected practice in any business situation.

[Moggy]

At the last possible moment Parliament is more likely to grab May’s deal than a referendum.

The People’s Vote people are strawberry floating idiots.

I do feel that the outcome - whatever it may be - won't be decided until the last moments; from a negotiating perspective, the EU won't want the agreement to look too positive or to be agreed too smoothly; else other member countries may then seek a similar outcome in the future.

For clarity, I am not deriding the EU approach; it's just expected practice in any business situation.

This isn’t a business situation, one of the biggest mistakes Leavers have made is thinking this is anything like business.

The EU wanted a deal sorted out months ago. It is simply not true that they want it to look difficult or are trying to put other countries off.

[Tomous]

The EU have been accommodating with our requests from Day 1 but have acted in their member's interests at all times. That's all you can ask of them, perfectly reasonable position. This shouldn't be a surprise, which is why the narrative spun by the Leave campaign about negotiations was just absurd especially when you consider who has the stronger negotiating position. Unfortunately, people bought into it, possibly due to an overinflated sense of the UK's global importance. The Empire ended a long time ago....

[jawafour]

This isn’t a business situation, one of the biggest mistakes Leavers have made is thinking this is anything like business...

I agree that the implications and impacts are far more reaching than many people wanted or anticipated, Moggy. The leaders of both sides delivered, in my view, poor communication of these aspects.

...The EU wanted a deal sorted out months ago. It is simply not true that they want it to look difficult or are trying to put other countries off.

I don't agree on this point. The EU would not want the outcome to look too comfortable or attractive; they need to ensure that Remain is clearly perceived as the desirable outcome in order to avoid other member countries thinking that the Leave option may suit them.

Again, for clarity I am not saying that either the UK or the EU is negotiating in anything other than - to my mind - an expected manner. It is uncomfortable and hideous.

[Harry Ola]

I think the sensible argument for not wanting to vote now on a 2nd referendum goes like this. It only makes sense to have vote when there is a deal to vote on. Voting without a deal makes it just look like a re-run of that fabulous day of national self-abuse. But once there is a deal, people can say you were promised the world, but got this absolute bag of nonsense, is this really what you want?

[Moggy]

This isn’t a business situation, one of the biggest mistakes Leavers have made is thinking this is anything like business...

I agree that the implications and impacts are far more reaching than many people wanted or anticipated, Moggy. The leaders of both sides delivered, in my view, poor communication of these aspects.

...The EU wanted a deal sorted out months ago. It is simply not true that they want it to look difficult or are trying to put other countries off.

I don't agree on this point. The EU would not want the outcome to look too comfortable or attractive; they need to ensure that Remain is clearly perceived as the desirable outcome in order to avoid other member countries thinking that the Leave option may suit them.

Again, for clarity I am not saying that either the UK or the EU is negotiating in anything other than - to my mind - an expected manner. It is uncomfortable and hideous.

You don’t need to agree the facts are that the EU has done nothing but compromise and show patience up to now. They’ve done nothing to make it look uncomfortable or unattractive.

And they don’t need to, no other country is close to doing something this stupid.

The Leave side love to pretend that the EU are bullying us to stop other countries leaving. But the truth is that that is yet another Leave lie.