Brexit Thread 2

Fed up talking videogames? Why?

How would you vote if we had to vote again?

Leave
12
7%
Remain
159
93%
 
Total votes: 171
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Lagamorph
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Lagamorph » Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:59 pm

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Zellery wrote:Good post Lagamorph.
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Return_of_the_STAR
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Return_of_the_STAR » Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:11 pm

Rex Kramer wrote:Apologies if this has been shared before, well worth a read.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-st ... -1-4851882


It makes some good points but it's written as though all of england voted to leave and all of scotland voted to stay. Totally ignoring that over two million people from Scotland, N Ireland and Wales voted to leave. It was only approx 500k more that voted to stay in those three countries. The difference isn't massive. On the English side of the vote, it was less than a 2 million difference between leave and stay. The vote was incredibly close, assuming that all those born in England have a complex about working together with other states as equals is way off the mark.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by NickSCFC » Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:23 pm

Rex Kramer wrote:Apologies if this has been shared before, well worth a read.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-st ... -1-4851882


The end of empire meant the end of all this. And because England has been unable to acknowledge that loss, it has also been unable to acknowledge the end of English exceptionalism, the end of the characterlessness the English had enjoyed as rulers of the world – with no need of distinct features to mark them off from their equals since they had no equals, embodying, as they did, the decency, reasonableness and good sense by which they assumed the rest of the world privately measured its lesser achievements and to which they assumed it aspired.

The trauma of lost exceptionalism, the psychic legacy of empire, haunts the English to the present day, in the illusion that their country needs to find itself a global role. Of course it is an illusion: do roughly comparable countries such as Germany or Italy or Japan have such a need?


Spot on, most leavers just don't understand their position in this world where USA, China, India, Russia and, of course, the EU now call the shots.

They also seem oblivious to our status before and after the Roman Empire where the Middle East and East Asia were the centres of civilisation while we wallowed in our own gooseberry fool in a insignificant corner of Western Europe.

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OrangeRKN
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by OrangeRKN » Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:36 pm

Bet the Welsh feel good about being referred to once as an English appendage and then forgotten. Cornwall don't even get a mention, yet they voted strongly to leave /and/ have a distinct identity which the piece argues doesn't exist in the English. Coupled with the points STAR makes above I don't think it's a particularly good analysis (well, opinion more than analysis, it doesn't really have any data in it and it's written very emotively).

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:38 pm

It was obviously for the best that the UK was on the winning side in WW2, but that victory has clouded the British mindset ever since. Rather than being a fading colonial power, we suddenly thought that we were still world conquerors who could take anybody on. The two favourite phrases of little Englanders are “Dunkirk spirit!” “The spirit of the Blitz!” and the daft pricks do not even realise that Dunkirk was a defeat and the Blitz was the country getting pounded into ruins. Even our “finest hour” at the Battle of Britain was only achieved with the help of pilots from at least 15 other nations.

Even in the colonial days Britain was great at kicking the gooseberry fool out of smaller and/or less advanced civilisations but always either lost or needed assistance when it came to the more advanced and powerful ones. But that is always lost on the little Englanders, “Britain ruled the waves” and the sun never set on the Empire and it was all so so wonderful.

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Rex Kramer
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Rex Kramer » Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:54 pm

There has been a constant rhetoric since the vote about Britain and it's place in the world. About reclaiming past glories, about how special Britain is. None of those people saying it actually mean Britain, they mean England. Brexit will spell the end of the United Kingdom and probably Great Britain. The UK within 10 years, GB within 20.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by NickSCFC » Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:56 pm

Moggy wrote:It was obviously for the best that the UK was on the winning side in WW2, but that victory has clouded the British mindset ever since. Rather than being a fading colonial power, we suddenly thought that we were still world conquerors who could take anybody on. The two favourite phrases of little Englanders are “Dunkirk spirit!” “The spirit of the Blitz!” and the daft pricks do not even realise that Dunkirk was a defeat and the Blitz was the country getting pounded into ruins. Even our “finest hour” at the Battle of Britain was only achieved with the help of pilots from at least 15 other nations.

Even in the colonial days Britain was great at kicking the gooseberry fool out of smaller and/or less advanced civilisations but always either lost or needed assistance when it came to the more advanced and powerful ones. But that is always lost on the little Englanders, “Britain ruled the waves” and the sun never set on the Empire and it was all so so wonderful.


Despite the disgusting acts carried out in the time of the empire, I won't debate with anyone that we weren't the most advanced nation on the plant during those years. But let's not pretend that we've always been that, or that the only reason that we are no longer is because the World has somehow ganged up on us.

The most advanced power always changes every century or so, once it was India, then the Egyptians, then the Romans, then the Chinese, then the Ottomans, then the French, then the British.

Now it's America, and in a century it could well be the Chinese, civilisations continue to rise and fall, no one should delude themselves that they're the superior race because they've had it good of late.

Last edited by NickSCFC on Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Met
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Met » Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:56 pm

OrangeRKN wrote:Bet the Welsh feel good about being referred to once as an English appendage and then forgotten. Cornwall don't even get a mention, yet they voted strongly to leave /and/ have a distinct identity which the piece argues doesn't exist in the English. Coupled with the points STAR makes above I don't think it's a particularly good analysis (well, opinion more than analysis, it doesn't really have any data in it and it's written very emotively).


In fairness, I often forget Wales exists.

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Return_of_the_STAR
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Return_of_the_STAR » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:02 pm

If someone voting for Brexit said they did so as they wanted the UK to be a smaller part player in world politics, away from the big table and the big responsibilities that come with it then i would understand their intentions but to withdraw us from being part of a big player with the intention of somehow making us a bigger player all on our own just defies all logic. We are increasingly heading for a world where the big decisions are made by the US, EU and China (sometimes Russia as everyone is scared of them) with the possibility of India coming aboard further down the line. I could even see calls for the EU to be given an UN veto power. Although i wonder if France would have to give their up to allow the EU to take their place. If so we would look very out of place at that table.

Unless of course we join forces with the rest of the Anglosphere to become the AUSCANNZUKUS union.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:12 pm

NickSCFC wrote:Despite the disgusting acts carried out in the time of the empire, I won't debate with anyone that we weren't the most advanced nation on the plant during those years.


We were. But we were not so advanced that we could take on too many of the other great powers. After Napoleon (who Britain couldn’t defeat alone) we had a period where Britain was the top dog. But even then we were sensible enough to pick on the little guys and leave Europe mostly alone. We were content to just tell ourselves that we were the greatest and sensible enough to not test it too often. But that sense of exceptionalism carried on, even when the horrors of WW1 and WW2 and the loss of Empire showed that Britain was no longer Billy Big Bollocks.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:17 pm

twitter.com/frasermatthew/status/1086186323499761664



Well that went well. :lol:

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OrangeRKN
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by OrangeRKN » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:27 pm

NickSCFC wrote:Despite the disgusting acts carried out in the time of the empire, I won't debate with anyone that we weren't the most advanced nation on the plant during those years.


Yggdrasil?

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NickSCFC

PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by NickSCFC » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:48 pm

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:.We are increasingly heading for a world where the big decisions are made by the US, EU and China (sometimes Russia as everyone is scared of them) with the possibility of India coming aboard further down the line.


How many hardcore Brexit would advocate becoming the 51st state?

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Rex Kramer
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Rex Kramer » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:51 pm

NickSCFC wrote:
Return_of_the_STAR wrote:.We are increasingly heading for a world where the big decisions are made by the US, EU and China (sometimes Russia as everyone is scared of them) with the possibility of India coming aboard further down the line.


How many hardcore Brexit would advocate becoming the 51st state?

I'm not sure they'd mind. Then we'd be ruled by a group of exclusively white, English speaking people. It's the funny talking johnny foreigners that we don't like over here.

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Squinty
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Squinty » Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:12 pm

twitter.com/barneyfarmer/status/1086285445154127872



:lol: :lol: :lol:

NickSCFC

PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by NickSCFC » Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:57 pm

Rex Kramer wrote:
NickSCFC wrote:
Return_of_the_STAR wrote:.We are increasingly heading for a world where the big decisions are made by the US, EU and China (sometimes Russia as everyone is scared of them) with the possibility of India coming aboard further down the line.


How many hardcore Brexit would advocate becoming the 51st state?

I'm not sure they'd mind. Then we'd be ruled by a group of exclusively white, English speaking people. It's the funny talking johnny foreigners that we don't like over here.


I'd love to see it happen just so the inevitable implications of having freedom of movement with Mississippi and Louisiana blows up in their face.

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massimo
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by massimo » Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:39 pm

Moggy wrote:It was obviously for the best that the UK was on the winning side in WW2, but that victory has clouded the British mindset ever since. Rather than being a fading colonial power, we suddenly thought that we were still world conquerors who could take anybody on. The two favourite phrases of little Englanders are “Dunkirk spirit!” “The spirit of the Blitz!” and the daft pricks do not even realise that Dunkirk was a defeat and the Blitz was the country getting pounded into ruins. Even our “finest hour” at the Battle of Britain was only achieved with the help of pilots from at least 15 other nations.

Even in the colonial days Britain was great at kicking the gooseberry fool out of smaller and/or less advanced civilisations but always either lost or needed assistance when it came to the more advanced and powerful ones. But that is always lost on the little Englanders, “Britain ruled the waves” and the sun never set on the Empire and it was all so so wonderful.


I listen to a podcast called Remainiacs. On one episode they were taking about our fascination with ‘winning’ the Second World War. One of the regulars, Alex Andreou (Greek guy living in the U.K.) said the only country to come out of the Second World War feeling better about itself was the U.K.

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satriales
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by satriales » Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:04 pm

twitter.com/tompeck/status/1086264773149380608



:slol:

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:13 pm

massimo wrote:
Moggy wrote:It was obviously for the best that the UK was on the winning side in WW2, but that victory has clouded the British mindset ever since. Rather than being a fading colonial power, we suddenly thought that we were still world conquerors who could take anybody on. The two favourite phrases of little Englanders are “Dunkirk spirit!” “The spirit of the Blitz!” and the daft pricks do not even realise that Dunkirk was a defeat and the Blitz was the country getting pounded into ruins. Even our “finest hour” at the Battle of Britain was only achieved with the help of pilots from at least 15 other nations.

Even in the colonial days Britain was great at kicking the gooseberry fool out of smaller and/or less advanced civilisations but always either lost or needed assistance when it came to the more advanced and powerful ones. But that is always lost on the little Englanders, “Britain ruled the waves” and the sun never set on the Empire and it was all so so wonderful.


I listen to a podcast called Remainiacs. On one episode they were taking about our fascination with ‘winning’ the Second World War. One of the regulars, Alex Andreou (Greek guy living in the U.K.) said the only country to come out of the Second World War feeling better about itself was the U.K.


I’m not sure that’s quite true. America became a powerhouse after it and the USSR ranked up to superpower status. I think they felt pretty good.

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Knoyleo
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Knoyleo » Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:24 pm

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:
Rex Kramer wrote:Apologies if this has been shared before, well worth a read.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-st ... -1-4851882


It makes some good points but it's written as though all of england voted to leave and all of scotland voted to stay. Totally ignoring that over two million people from Scotland, N Ireland and Wales voted to leave. It was only approx 500k more that voted to stay in those three countries. The difference isn't massive. On the English side of the vote, it was less than a 2 million difference between leave and stay. The vote was incredibly close, assuming that all those born in England have a complex about working together with other states as equals is way off the mark.

#NotAllEnglishmen

pjbetman wrote:That's the stupidest thing ive ever read on here i think.

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