Brexit Thread 2

Fed up talking videogames? Why?

How would you vote if we had to vote again?

Leave
12
7%
Remain
156
93%
 
Total votes: 168
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Green Gecko
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Green Gecko » Wed May 08, 2019 4:44 pm

Lagamorph wrote:Yeah I got one this morning with my actual name on.

What worries me is that I'm not on the open electoral register, so I've no idea how they got my name and address.

I think political parties and candidates might still have access to the edited electoral roll, as I'm also on that and I get stuff from labour, Lib dem, government etc addressed to me sometimes. It's businesses and private individuals that can't access it; I'm not sure how this applies to independents and small parties etc.

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Squinty
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Squinty » Wed May 08, 2019 6:02 pm

As an aside, I'm seeing this 'we have left the EU' belief from quitters more and more. It's strawberry floating incredible how imbecilic they are.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Wed May 08, 2019 6:04 pm

Squinty wrote:As an aside, I'm seeing this 'we have left the EU' belief from quitters more and more. It's strawberry floating incredible how imbecilic they are.


I’ve seen a bit of it. The idea seems to be that Article 50 doesn’t mention extensions being possible so we’ve already left.

Thick banana splits :lol:

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Vermilion
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Vermilion » Wed May 08, 2019 7:02 pm

Received my polling card today, i'd rather they sent me some real toilet paper, but hey ho.

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Jenuall
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Jenuall » Wed May 08, 2019 7:21 pm

Received my cerdyn pleidleisio last week, all ready to head to the gorsaf bleidleisio when the dyddiad yr etholiad comes around.

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KK
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by KK » Wed May 08, 2019 7:29 pm

If you can bear more Brexit related television, Brexit: Behind Closed Doors - Storyville airs tonight on BBC4 at 9pm, a fly-on-the-wall documentary looking at European negotiators, tasked with getting a deal with the British.

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Squinty
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Squinty » Thu May 09, 2019 7:22 am

KK wrote:If you can bear more Brexit related television, Brexit: Behind Closed Doors - Storyville airs tonight on BBC4 at 9pm, a fly-on-the-wall documentary looking at European negotiators, tasked with getting a deal with the British.


Did anyone catch this?

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Hexx
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Hexx » Thu May 09, 2019 9:31 am

Jeremy Corbyn is launching Labour’s campaign for the European elections in Medway, Kent, this morning. And, according to the extracts from his speech sent out in advance, he is keen to shift the conversation away from Brexit. Here are the key points.

Corbyn will seek to make the Euro elections about social justice, not Brexit. This is what the party says in its news release about the Labour manifesto.

The manifesto – ‘Transforming Britain and Europe: for the many not the few’ – sets out Labour’s plans to work across borders to take on the tax dodgers, the polluters and the migrant baiters of the far right.

From taking urgent action on the climate emergency, to protecting and strengthening workers’ rights, to facing down the far right, the manifesto speaks to the lives of people in Britain and across Europe.


Corbyn will restate Labour’s qualified support for a second referendum, implying he would not back a people’s vote on a Brexit deal Labour supported. Corbyn will say:

Labour’s alternative plan for Brexit, which protects jobs, living standards and communities, would end the chaos caused by the Conservatives and let us focus on the other big issues facing our country.
But we can never accept the government’s bad deal or a disastrous no deal. So if we can’t get a sensible deal, along the lines of our alternative plan, or a general election, Labour backs the option of a public vote.


He will claim that Labour is the only party that can appeal to both remain supporters and leave supporters. He will say:
To transform our country, and tackle injustice, inequality and the climate crisis, we need to unite the overwhelming majority of people and take on the privileged and powerful.

That’s why we insist the real divide in our country is not how people voted in the EU referendum. The real divide is between the many and the few. Whether you’re from Tottenham or Mansfield, Stockwell or Stoke, here in Medway or in Manchester, so many of the problems you face are the same.

Other parties appeal to just one side of the Brexit debate because they aren’t really committed to taking on the tax dodgers, the big polluters, or the financial gamblers who crashed our economy a decade ago. Labour is the only party with a plan to unite our country to make it work for the many not the few.


Useless clown

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captain red dog
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by captain red dog » Thu May 09, 2019 9:36 am

If we were remaining in the EU, I'd say that was actually a good manifesto. But Labour continuing to sit on the fence is not getting them anywhere. The council elections show that the vote is a binary split between remain and leave. They will never attract the leave vote, so at this stage they have nothing to lose by going full Remain.

Edit: and since the remain vote is primarily a younger demographic, and leavers will likely boycott future elections anyway, Labour could make a huge success of targeting the younger vote. But Corbyn seems to have a weird hold on power backed by a largely remain orientated Momentum lobby. It's bizzaro world.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Thu May 09, 2019 9:57 am

captain red dog wrote:If we were remaining in the EU, I'd say that was actually a good manifesto. But Labour continuing to sit on the fence is not getting them anywhere. The council elections show that the vote is a binary split between remain and leave. They will never attract the leave vote, so at this stage they have nothing to lose by going full Remain.

Edit: and since the remain vote is primarily a younger demographic, and leavers will likely boycott future elections anyway, Labour could make a huge success of targeting the younger vote. But Corbyn seems to have a weird hold on power backed by a largely remain orientated Momentum lobby. It's bizzaro world.


Corbyn is a Leaver in charge of a party that favours Remain. In order to not piss everybody off he has tried to appeal to both sides and has ended up pissing everybody off.

May is a Remainer in charge of a party that favours Leave. In order to not piss everybody off she has tried to appeal to both sides and has ended up pissing everybody off.

They are both idiots.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Blue Eyes » Thu May 09, 2019 10:20 am

Moggy wrote:
captain red dog wrote:If we were remaining in the EU, I'd say that was actually a good manifesto. But Labour continuing to sit on the fence is not getting them anywhere. The council elections show that the vote is a binary split between remain and leave. They will never attract the leave vote, so at this stage they have nothing to lose by going full Remain.

Edit: and since the remain vote is primarily a younger demographic, and leavers will likely boycott future elections anyway, Labour could make a huge success of targeting the younger vote. But Corbyn seems to have a weird hold on power backed by a largely remain orientated Momentum lobby. It's bizzaro world.


Corbyn is a Leaver in charge of a party that favours Remain. In order to not piss everybody off he has tried to appeal to both sides and has ended up pissing everybody off.

May is a Remainer in charge of a party that favours Leave. In order to not piss everybody off she has tried to appeal to both sides and has ended up pissing everybody off.

They are both idiots.

I refuse to believe that May was ever truly a remainer. She is an evil, insidious racist banana split whose only principle is to be in power no matter strawberry floating what.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Thu May 09, 2019 10:24 am

Blue Eyes wrote:
Moggy wrote:
captain red dog wrote:If we were remaining in the EU, I'd say that was actually a good manifesto. But Labour continuing to sit on the fence is not getting them anywhere. The council elections show that the vote is a binary split between remain and leave. They will never attract the leave vote, so at this stage they have nothing to lose by going full Remain.

Edit: and since the remain vote is primarily a younger demographic, and leavers will likely boycott future elections anyway, Labour could make a huge success of targeting the younger vote. But Corbyn seems to have a weird hold on power backed by a largely remain orientated Momentum lobby. It's bizzaro world.


Corbyn is a Leaver in charge of a party that favours Remain. In order to not piss everybody off he has tried to appeal to both sides and has ended up pissing everybody off.

May is a Remainer in charge of a party that favours Leave. In order to not piss everybody off she has tried to appeal to both sides and has ended up pissing everybody off.

They are both idiots.

I refuse to believe that May was ever truly a remainer. She is an evil, insidious racist banana split whose only principle is to be in power no matter strawberry floating what.


She’s a racist banana split but she was a Remainer and probably still is.

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OrangeRKN
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by OrangeRKN » Thu May 09, 2019 10:26 am

That’s why we insist the real divide in our country is not how people voted in the EU referendum. The real divide is between the many and the few.

Other parties appeal to just one side of the Brexit debate because they aren’t really committed to taking on the tax dodgers, the big polluters, or the financial gamblers who crashed our economy a decade ago.


This is 100% correct though

The EU has always been a scapegoat. Class divides, rising wealth disparity and a decoupled economy are what foster voter resentment, that was just redirected by vested interests into anti-EU and anti-immigration sentiment.

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Hexx
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Hexx » Thu May 09, 2019 10:32 am

OrangeRKN wrote:
That’s why we insist the real divide in our country is not how people voted in the EU referendum. The real divide is between the many and the few.

Other parties appeal to just one side of the Brexit debate because they aren’t really committed to taking on the tax dodgers, the big polluters, or the financial gamblers who crashed our economy a decade ago.


This is 100% correct though

The EU has always been a scapegoat. Class divides, rising wealth disparity and a decoupled economy are what foster voter resentment, that was just redirected by vested interests into anti-EU and anti-immigration sentiment.


You what? The first part is 100% bollocks. Turn on the TV, read comments, listen in the street/pub. Nevermind the fact this is talking in context of the EU elections.

The second part - might be right about some parties, but not all of them. e.g. Greens don't want to take on Big Polluters etc? Bollocks.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by OrangeRKN » Thu May 09, 2019 10:41 am

Hexx wrote:You what? The first part is 100% bollocks. Turn on the TV, read comments, listen in the street/pub.


Oh the narrative is definitely Brexit all the way, but the root cause isn't people's inherent or well-figured stance on the European Union. The dissatisfaction that led to Brexit wasn't caused by the EU, even if that's what people believe. That's evidenced by the well-documented falsehoods of the leave campaign and related media (going back a long way) amongst other things.

And yes, not all parties of course, please reconsider me applying that to mainly the Conservatives (who I think it is mainly aimed at, to be fair).

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Thu May 09, 2019 10:47 am

OrangeRKN wrote:
That’s why we insist the real divide in our country is not how people voted in the EU referendum. The real divide is between the many and the few.

Other parties appeal to just one side of the Brexit debate because they aren’t really committed to taking on the tax dodgers, the big polluters, or the financial gamblers who crashed our economy a decade ago.


This is 100% correct though

The EU has always been a scapegoat. Class divides, rising wealth disparity and a decoupled economy are what foster voter resentment, that was just redirected by vested interests into anti-EU and anti-immigration sentiment.


The real divide before the referendum was between the many and the few. That’s true.

But the country is now divided between Remain and Leave. That’s the issue for now.

The tax dodgers, big polluters and financial gamblers are all Leavers. If Labour want to fight them then they will find it far easier to do so as part of an international union with worldwide clout rather than trying as small island nation that is in a recession/depression of its own choosing.

Labour will not be able to help the poor and working classes by facilitating a Tory led Brexit that will unleash (even with Labour’s Customs Union) economic chaos upon the ordinary people.

Kill off Brexit and then work to heal the divide between the many and the few.

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Hexx
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Hexx » Thu May 09, 2019 10:48 am

OrangeRKN wrote:
Hexx wrote:You what? The first part is 100% bollocks. Turn on the TV, read comments, listen in the street/pub.


Oh the narrative is definitely Brexit all the way, but the root cause isn't people's inherent or well-figured stance on the European Union. The dissatisfaction that led to Brexit wasn't caused by the EU, even if that's what people believe. That's evidenced by the well-documented falsehoods of the leave campaign and related media (going back a long way) amongst other things.


But then the divide isstill between leave and remain - even if Leave are misguided about the causes of the issues that triggered their vote.

And that's still bollocks because they're plenty of people on the remain side firmly in "the few". So it becomes "the split in our country is really the between some of the many against the few and some of the many they conned into voting with them" :lol:

And even then "the people voted due to real grievances, but against the wrong target, but we'll still carry out their wishes and cause massive social/economic harm" is a chuffin' terrible position.

We need more of this (mainly from 3.40)



and less of whatever gumph Corbyn's pushing.

Corbyn's decided that the way to heal the rift between leave and remain, is not to explain to leavers how they were lied to and bring leave/remain together against true enemies.

But to give the leavers what they want (but that won't achieve what they think), and in the ashes of that disaster hope leave and remain will then come together to let him take on the real villains.

strawberry float that.

And yes, not all parties of course, please reconsider me applying that to mainly the Conservatives (who I think it is mainly aimed at, to be fair).


Fine. But a) it's not 100% true then and b) explicitly not what he said :P. So we agree Corbyn is talking bollocks. Yey!

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Karl_ » Thu May 09, 2019 10:51 am

Corbyn has done half a materialist analysis of why the working class are presently angry. "Deep down it's really about inequality" - yes - "so we should just fudge Brexit ASAP and move on" - no! Brexit (any foreseeable Brexit) will make inequality materially worse! That's why leftists oppose it!

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by captain red dog » Thu May 09, 2019 11:04 am

Yep I agree with Moggy ref Corbyn and May. Labour would be wise to back remain, get the Tories out and then if Corbyn really wants to push us full socialist, let's see what can be done within the EU first. I think though, and this is where my support in him wanes, that he knows that if they back remain, he can't get the quick "revolution" he wants. So he is as guilty as May in terms of putting the national interest behind his own ambition.

I can't support a Tory Brexit, and I can't support Corbyn if he goes along with it. Priority should be on blocking the Tory Brexit vision and obtaining government, and if that is through backing remain then that is the best option. The clock has run out and it's now time to make a choice.

I have to be pragmatic. The damage to the country, and I'd say a large reason why so many people backed leave is because of the gutting austerity since 2010. Being told we were "all in it together" whilst disabled people were left to die and public services were hacked apart led to a large backlash. Add on the Northern towns that still haven't recovered from Thatcher, decades on, there is extreme wealth disparity.

I'd rather we chose to remain at this point, got the Tories out, actually take part in Europe and try and influence genuine reform, and if people are still unhappy in another decade the issue can always be revisited.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by OrangeRKN » Thu May 09, 2019 11:11 am

Hexx wrote:And even then "the people voted due to real grievances, but against the wrong target, but we'll still carry out their wishes and cause massive social/economic harm" is a chuffin' terrible position.


Agreed!

I think that quote is correct in its assessment (inequality is the underlying issue and real divide, as Karl summarises), but I don't agree with the Labour approach of committing to leaving the EU regardless.


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