Brexit Thread 2

Fed up talking videogames? Why?

How would you vote if we had to vote again?

Leave
10
7%
Remain
136
93%
 
Total votes: 146
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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:20 pm

BID0 wrote:
Lagamorph wrote:
BID0 wrote:
Lagamorph wrote:
BID0 wrote:Are you saying that whenever you have voted for someone you've always 100% agreed with them in every way? I'm sure there are many young people who want to stay in the EU, but perhaps they prioritise that less than other things. Calling them idiots or that they've been conned makes you look like a simpleton.

Except staying in the EU will impact literally every other thing they prioritise.
Staying in the EU means more jobs.
Staying in the EU means money available for free university education.
Staying in the EU means more money for the NHS.
Staying in the EU means more opportunities for young people across the EU for work and travel.

Saying that young people have been conned into supporting Corbyn doesn't make you look like a simpleton at all.
At the last GE young people seemed convinced Corbyn was actually going to stop Brexit and was playing some nth dimensional chess while it's now obvious to them that was never the case.

source?

Source for what? That staying in the EU would be beneficial to those things? The source for that is "look at the last few years and how things have gone"
Are you really trying to say that leaving the EU won't impact jobs available for young people? Won't mean there is less money available for education and the NHS?

The source for the original topic before you changed it... that so many young people voted for labour primarily for staying in the EU. So many young people in fact that you can claim that that entire age group think he is playing 9D chess and are being conned.

For the record I've never heard anyone voting for Labour to stay in the EU. The only people I hear talk about that are the people here. I'm sure that there's probably a handful of fringe people somewhere that did but then it's exactly that, a handful of people.


It's impossible to say how and why everybody voted, but the evidence suggests young people want to Remain and that young people voted for Labour. It's not exactly controversial to suggest that those young people voted Labour in the belief that Labour might offer a way out of Brexit or at least a better way than what the Tories were offering/likely to do.

In the referendum:

Under-25s were more than twice as likely to vote Remain (71%) than Leave (29%).

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/ar ... tain-voted


In the 2017 general election:


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BID0
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by BID0 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:33 pm

Moggy wrote:
BID0 wrote:
Lagamorph wrote:
BID0 wrote:
Lagamorph wrote:
BID0 wrote:Are you saying that whenever you have voted for someone you've always 100% agreed with them in every way? I'm sure there are many young people who want to stay in the EU, but perhaps they prioritise that less than other things. Calling them idiots or that they've been conned makes you look like a simpleton.

Except staying in the EU will impact literally every other thing they prioritise.
Staying in the EU means more jobs.
Staying in the EU means money available for free university education.
Staying in the EU means more money for the NHS.
Staying in the EU means more opportunities for young people across the EU for work and travel.

Saying that young people have been conned into supporting Corbyn doesn't make you look like a simpleton at all.
At the last GE young people seemed convinced Corbyn was actually going to stop Brexit and was playing some nth dimensional chess while it's now obvious to them that was never the case.

source?

Source for what? That staying in the EU would be beneficial to those things? The source for that is "look at the last few years and how things have gone"
Are you really trying to say that leaving the EU won't impact jobs available for young people? Won't mean there is less money available for education and the NHS?

The source for the original topic before you changed it... that so many young people voted for labour primarily for staying in the EU. So many young people in fact that you can claim that that entire age group think he is playing 9D chess and are being conned.

For the record I've never heard anyone voting for Labour to stay in the EU. The only people I hear talk about that are the people here. I'm sure that there's probably a handful of fringe people somewhere that did but then it's exactly that, a handful of people.


It's impossible to say how and why everybody voted, but the evidence suggests young people want to Remain and that young people voted for Labour. It's not exactly controversial to suggest that those young people voted Labour in the belief that Labour might offer a way out of Brexit or at least a better way than what the Tories were offering/likely to do.

In the referendum:

Under-25s were more than twice as likely to vote Remain (71%) than Leave (29%).

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/ar ... tain-voted


In the 2017 general election:


I would have thought the more logical assumption to jump to was that there were more important things to them than being in the EU or not.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:44 pm

BID0 wrote:I would have thought the more logical assumption to jump to was that there were more important things to them than being in the EU or not.


Of course (see my other posts).

But it is not a ridiculous thought to compare the percentage of young Remain voters to the percentage of young Labour voters. The figures are almost identical. That tells us that young Labour voters are pro Remain. Other polls suggest that 80%+ of Labour party members are pro Remain. All of those people have other issues that they believe Labour can address, but the fact is that Labour voters and members want to Remain in the EU.

Which will be a big problem for Corbyn in the future if he doesn’t start actually backing the wishes of his party. He might survive pissing them off over Brexit, but he is going to be in a lot of trouble if he pushes ahead with Brexit and the resultant financial meltdown means that he can’t address the other issues that Labour voters care about. He will have betrayed them twice.

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Rex Kramer
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Rex Kramer » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:56 pm

I love this mythical universe you're talking about where Jeremy Corbyn wins a general election. He should be a million points ahead of the current Tories and he's not. He ain't winning gooseberry fool.

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captain red dog
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by captain red dog » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:57 pm

It's an odd mix. Certainly the young left wing Labour voters I know seem to accept that the EU doesn't fit with the more socialist society that they want. I think at the last election they were happy with Corbyn on the idea that his version of Brexit would see us shift a bit further into a socialist society, whether or not that could actually be achieved in negotiations in realith. I don't think it was a case of the EU being more or less important, just that they felt Corbyn may have been able to move us out in a softer manner to enable him to bring in some of the more radical policies they would like to see.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:05 pm

Rex Kramer wrote:I love this mythical universe you're talking about where Jeremy Corbyn wins a general election. He should be a million points ahead of the current Tories and he's not. He ain't winning gooseberry fool.


If we have a hard Brexit and a massive financial crash then he has a chance of winning the next election. If the economy absolutely tanks then the Tories may well be gone.

But that is not going to be a good thing for him. He will be unable to implement many of his policies due to a lack of funds and he will plunge the country into even deeper financial trouble for the plans that he does try and implement. That will kill off Labour for another 10-15 years.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:07 pm

captain red dog wrote:It's an odd mix. Certainly the young left wing Labour voters I know seem to accept that the EU doesn't fit with the more socialist society that they want. I think at the last election they were happy with Corbyn on the idea that his version of Brexit would see us shift a bit further into a socialist society, whether or not that could actually be achieved in negotiations in realith. I don't think it was a case of the EU being more or less important, just that they felt Corbyn may have been able to move us out in a softer manner to enable him to bring in some of the more radical policies they would like to see.


You must only know some fundamentalist Marxist young Labour voters. Every single poll and study on the issue shows young people support the EU and support Labour. They absolutely see that we can be more socialist while remaining in the EU.

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BID0
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by BID0 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:15 pm

Moggy wrote:
Rex Kramer wrote:I love this mythical universe you're talking about where Jeremy Corbyn wins a general election. He should be a million points ahead of the current Tories and he's not. He ain't winning gooseberry fool.


If we have a hard Brexit and a massive financial crash then he has a chance of winning the next election. If the economy absolutely tanks then the Tories may well be gone.

But that is not going to be a good thing for him. He will be unable to implement many of his policies due to a lack of funds and he will plunge the country into even deeper financial trouble for the plans that he does try and implement. That will kill off Labour for another 10-15 years.

A country that can print its own money can't have a lack of funds as we saw during the last financial crisis.

Plus it would be an investment rather than an expense. An investment generates money over the long term.

So it wouldn't be impossible to have the money to invest whatever the economy was like. It would be absolute gooseberry fool for the economy for decades however.

Last edited by BID0 on Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Hexx
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Hexx » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:16 pm

Rex Kramer wrote:I love this mythical universe you're talking about where Jeremy Corbyn wins a general election. He should be a million points ahead of the current Tories and he's not. He ain't winning gooseberry fool.


The problem I can see that this is probably "peak support" for Lab on Brexit. They've tried to fence sit and appeal to both sides for so long - but they're running out of time.

Anything they'll do will only piss off one group - and they will lose Leave/Remain they've been stringing along.

(I don't see them pulling much Leaver/Remain support for Tory or SNP/LibDem no matter what they pick)

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:20 pm

BID0 wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Rex Kramer wrote:I love this mythical universe you're talking about where Jeremy Corbyn wins a general election. He should be a million points ahead of the current Tories and he's not. He ain't winning gooseberry fool.


If we have a hard Brexit and a massive financial crash then he has a chance of winning the next election. If the economy absolutely tanks then the Tories may well be gone.

But that is not going to be a good thing for him. He will be unable to implement many of his policies due to a lack of funds and he will plunge the country into even deeper financial trouble for the plans that he does try and implement. That will kill off Labour for another 10-15 years.

A country that can print its own money can't have a lack of funds as we saw during the last financial crisis.

Plus it would be an investment rather than an expense. An investment generates money over the long term.

So it wouldn't be impossible to have the money to invest whatever the economy was like. It would be absolute gooseberry fool for the economy for decades however.


So we enter a self imposed economic downturn by leaving the EU. We then spend a fortune and pay for it by printing more and more money.

What can go wrong? :lol:

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BID0
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Location: Essex

PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by BID0 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:28 pm

Moggy wrote:
BID0 wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Rex Kramer wrote:I love this mythical universe you're talking about where Jeremy Corbyn wins a general election. He should be a million points ahead of the current Tories and he's not. He ain't winning gooseberry fool.


If we have a hard Brexit and a massive financial crash then he has a chance of winning the next election. If the economy absolutely tanks then the Tories may well be gone.

But that is not going to be a good thing for him. He will be unable to implement many of his policies due to a lack of funds and he will plunge the country into even deeper financial trouble for the plans that he does try and implement. That will kill off Labour for another 10-15 years.

A country that can print its own money can't have a lack of funds as we saw during the last financial crisis.

Plus it would be an investment rather than an expense. An investment generates money over the long term.

So it wouldn't be impossible to have the money to invest whatever the economy was like. It would be absolute gooseberry fool for the economy for decades however.


So we enter a self imposed economic downturn by leaving the EU. We then spend a fortune and pay for it by printing more and more money.

What can go wrong? :lol:

I'm not sure, I'm not good enough with maths to model an entire economy. 99.999999% likely bad for us yes. But I would think by now we have all accepted that's going to happen whatever with Brexit.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:33 pm

BID0 wrote:
Moggy wrote:
BID0 wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Rex Kramer wrote:I love this mythical universe you're talking about where Jeremy Corbyn wins a general election. He should be a million points ahead of the current Tories and he's not. He ain't winning gooseberry fool.


If we have a hard Brexit and a massive financial crash then he has a chance of winning the next election. If the economy absolutely tanks then the Tories may well be gone.

But that is not going to be a good thing for him. He will be unable to implement many of his policies due to a lack of funds and he will plunge the country into even deeper financial trouble for the plans that he does try and implement. That will kill off Labour for another 10-15 years.

A country that can print its own money can't have a lack of funds as we saw during the last financial crisis.

Plus it would be an investment rather than an expense. An investment generates money over the long term.

So it wouldn't be impossible to have the money to invest whatever the economy was like. It would be absolute gooseberry fool for the economy for decades however.


So we enter a self imposed economic downturn by leaving the EU. We then spend a fortune and pay for it by printing more and more money.

What can go wrong? :lol:

I'm not sure, I'm not good enough with maths to model an entire economy. 99.999999% likely bad for us yes. But I would think by now we have all accepted that's going to happen whatever with Brexit.


Brexit will be bad but just printing loads more money would only make it worse.

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Lagamorph
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Lagamorph » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:45 pm

captain red dog wrote:It's an odd mix. Certainly the young left wing Labour voters I know seem to accept that the EU doesn't fit with the more socialist society that they want. I think at the last election they were happy with Corbyn on the idea that his version of Brexit would see us shift a bit further into a socialist society, whether or not that could actually be achieved in negotiations in realith. I don't think it was a case of the EU being more or less important, just that they felt Corbyn may have been able to move us out in a softer manner to enable him to bring in some of the more radical policies they would like to see.

Except that the EU isn't really a blocker to many of the left wing policies Corbyn wants to implement.
Corbyn loves to harp on about how the EU would stop him from re-nationalising the railways when that simply isn't true. There are ways to do that within EU law and other EU countries have successfully done so for a long time. Corbyn is no different from the Tories in that he loves to use the EU as a boogeyman. For Cobyn it's nationalisation, for the Tories it's EU migration (And Labour were no better for that before them). They both say the EU rules block them from doing anything about it when there are plenty of EU regulations that would let them do something, they simply choose not to even acknowledge they exist, let alone use them.

Anyone who says that Corbyn can get a Softer Brexit whilst refusing to accept the 4 freedoms is an idiot, a liar or just being willfully ignorant by this point.


Moggy wrote:
BID0 wrote:
Moggy wrote:
BID0 wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Rex Kramer wrote:I love this mythical universe you're talking about where Jeremy Corbyn wins a general election. He should be a million points ahead of the current Tories and he's not. He ain't winning gooseberry fool.


If we have a hard Brexit and a massive financial crash then he has a chance of winning the next election. If the economy absolutely tanks then the Tories may well be gone.

But that is not going to be a good thing for him. He will be unable to implement many of his policies due to a lack of funds and he will plunge the country into even deeper financial trouble for the plans that he does try and implement. That will kill off Labour for another 10-15 years.

A country that can print its own money can't have a lack of funds as we saw during the last financial crisis.

Plus it would be an investment rather than an expense. An investment generates money over the long term.

So it wouldn't be impossible to have the money to invest whatever the economy was like. It would be absolute gooseberry fool for the economy for decades however.


So we enter a self imposed economic downturn by leaving the EU. We then spend a fortune and pay for it by printing more and more money.

What can go wrong? :lol:

I'm not sure, I'm not good enough with maths to model an entire economy. 99.999999% likely bad for us yes. But I would think by now we have all accepted that's going to happen whatever with Brexit.


Brexit will be bad but just printing loads more money would only make it worse.

Hey it worked great for Zimbabwe. Now everyone is a millionaire.

Lagamorph's Underwater Photography Thread
Zellery wrote:Good post Lagamorph.
Turboman wrote:Lagomorph..... Is ..... Right
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Hexx
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Hexx » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:49 pm


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BID0
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Location: Essex

PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by BID0 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:56 pm

Moggy wrote:
BID0 wrote:
Moggy wrote:
BID0 wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Rex Kramer wrote:I love this mythical universe you're talking about where Jeremy Corbyn wins a general election. He should be a million points ahead of the current Tories and he's not. He ain't winning gooseberry fool.


If we have a hard Brexit and a massive financial crash then he has a chance of winning the next election. If the economy absolutely tanks then the Tories may well be gone.

But that is not going to be a good thing for him. He will be unable to implement many of his policies due to a lack of funds and he will plunge the country into even deeper financial trouble for the plans that he does try and implement. That will kill off Labour for another 10-15 years.

A country that can print its own money can't have a lack of funds as we saw during the last financial crisis.

Plus it would be an investment rather than an expense. An investment generates money over the long term.

So it wouldn't be impossible to have the money to invest whatever the economy was like. It would be absolute gooseberry fool for the economy for decades however.


So we enter a self imposed economic downturn by leaving the EU. We then spend a fortune and pay for it by printing more and more money.

What can go wrong? :lol:

I'm not sure, I'm not good enough with maths to model an entire economy. 99.999999% likely bad for us yes. But I would think by now we have all accepted that's going to happen whatever with Brexit.


Brexit will be bad but just printing loads more money would only make it worse.

short term worse, potential for better long term.

not doing it at all and continue the cutting we have been doing... short term "better" but worse long term.

Zimbawee is hardly a good comparison Laga but you already knew that :fp: sometimes it's like reading The Sun when you read your comments

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Hyperion
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Location: Beyond the wall

PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Hyperion » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:05 pm

Hexx wrote:
Rex Kramer wrote:I love this mythical universe you're talking about where Jeremy Corbyn wins a general election. He should be a million points ahead of the current Tories and he's not. He ain't winning gooseberry fool.


The problem I can see that this is probably "peak support" for Lab on Brexit. They've tried to fence sit and appeal to both sides for so long - but they're running out of time.

Anything they'll do will only piss off one group - and they will lose Leave/Remain they've been stringing along.

(I don't see them pulling much Leaver/Remain support for Tory or SNP/LibDem no matter what they pick)


It's peak support, but where are these voters going to go to?

Image
Ad7 wrote:stop moaning about it
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Lagamorph
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Lagamorph » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:06 pm

BID0 wrote:
Moggy wrote:
BID0 wrote:
Moggy wrote:
BID0 wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Rex Kramer wrote:I love this mythical universe you're talking about where Jeremy Corbyn wins a general election. He should be a million points ahead of the current Tories and he's not. He ain't winning gooseberry fool.


If we have a hard Brexit and a massive financial crash then he has a chance of winning the next election. If the economy absolutely tanks then the Tories may well be gone.

But that is not going to be a good thing for him. He will be unable to implement many of his policies due to a lack of funds and he will plunge the country into even deeper financial trouble for the plans that he does try and implement. That will kill off Labour for another 10-15 years.

A country that can print its own money can't have a lack of funds as we saw during the last financial crisis.

Plus it would be an investment rather than an expense. An investment generates money over the long term.

So it wouldn't be impossible to have the money to invest whatever the economy was like. It would be absolute gooseberry fool for the economy for decades however.


So we enter a self imposed economic downturn by leaving the EU. We then spend a fortune and pay for it by printing more and more money.

What can go wrong? :lol:

I'm not sure, I'm not good enough with maths to model an entire economy. 99.999999% likely bad for us yes. But I would think by now we have all accepted that's going to happen whatever with Brexit.


Brexit will be bad but just printing loads more money would only make it worse.

short term worse, potential for better long term.

not doing it at all and continue the cutting we have been doing... short term "better" but worse long term.

Zimbawee is hardly a good comparison Laga but you already knew that :fp: sometimes it's like reading The Sun when you read your comments

Zimbabwe is a perfect comparison. A country that was doing incredibly well economically that then suddenly started to experience significant problems due to awful leadership that put itself before the country and austerity programs that completely killed economic growth and then to try and pay off debt and fund itself just started printing more and more money.

Name one country where just printing more money has been as beneficial as you claim it will be.

Lagamorph's Underwater Photography Thread
Zellery wrote:Good post Lagamorph.
Turboman wrote:Lagomorph..... Is ..... Right
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Hexx
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Hexx » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:16 pm

Hyperion wrote:
Hexx wrote:
Rex Kramer wrote:I love this mythical universe you're talking about where Jeremy Corbyn wins a general election. He should be a million points ahead of the current Tories and he's not. He ain't winning gooseberry fool.


The problem I can see that this is probably "peak support" for Lab on Brexit. They've tried to fence sit and appeal to both sides for so long - but they're running out of time.

Anything they'll do will only piss off one group - and they will lose Leave/Remain they've been stringing along.

(I don't see them pulling much Leaver/Remain support for Tory or SNP/LibDem no matter what they pick)


It's peak support, but where are these voters going to go to?


Leavers might go Tory
Remainers might go SNP/LibDem/Green as some sort of protest vote

Or they might just not vote at all for any of this shower of depression (most likely IMO)

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Hexx
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Joined in 2008

PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Hexx » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:17 pm

Lagamorph wrote:Name one country where just printing more money has been as beneficial as you claim it will be.


The Weimar Republic.

And now Germany is one of the strongest economies in Europe!

Coincidence?

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BID0
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Location: Essex

PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by BID0 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:36 pm

Lagamorph wrote:
BID0 wrote:
Moggy wrote:
BID0 wrote:
Moggy wrote:
BID0 wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Rex Kramer wrote:I love this mythical universe you're talking about where Jeremy Corbyn wins a general election. He should be a million points ahead of the current Tories and he's not. He ain't winning gooseberry fool.


If we have a hard Brexit and a massive financial crash then he has a chance of winning the next election. If the economy absolutely tanks then the Tories may well be gone.

But that is not going to be a good thing for him. He will be unable to implement many of his policies due to a lack of funds and he will plunge the country into even deeper financial trouble for the plans that he does try and implement. That will kill off Labour for another 10-15 years.

A country that can print its own money can't have a lack of funds as we saw during the last financial crisis.

Plus it would be an investment rather than an expense. An investment generates money over the long term.

So it wouldn't be impossible to have the money to invest whatever the economy was like. It would be absolute gooseberry fool for the economy for decades however.


So we enter a self imposed economic downturn by leaving the EU. We then spend a fortune and pay for it by printing more and more money.

What can go wrong? :lol:

I'm not sure, I'm not good enough with maths to model an entire economy. 99.999999% likely bad for us yes. But I would think by now we have all accepted that's going to happen whatever with Brexit.


Brexit will be bad but just printing loads more money would only make it worse.

short term worse, potential for better long term.

not doing it at all and continue the cutting we have been doing... short term "better" but worse long term.

Zimbawee is hardly a good comparison Laga but you already knew that :fp: sometimes it's like reading The Sun when you read your comments

Zimbabwe is a perfect comparison. A country that was doing incredibly well economically that then suddenly started to experience significant problems due to awful leadership that put itself before the country and austerity programs that completely killed economic growth and then to try and pay off debt and fund itself just started printing more and more money.

Name one country where just printing more money has been as beneficial as you claim it will be.

You’ve just described the Conservative party. Printing money and investing it is completely different to printing money and giving it to rich people and carrying out austerity

Pretty much every country after the last wars had to create money to invest as they were all bankrupt. Iceland recently. Japan and Germany are good examples of investing in bankrupt economies

If you’re bankrupt you can’t carry out more austerity and you have no assets to sell to generate short term wealth


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