Brexit Thread 2

[NickSCFC]

MPs to vote on second referendum

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 22636.html

[OrangeRKN]

I think that tribalism is inherently human and trying to eliminate it is a lost cause. Instead it should be redirected to render it harmless - and that's exactly what sports do. Supporting my local team is as irrational as ardent nationalism, but it's fun and socially positive. It's tribalistic but deliberately good natured.

I don't see anything wrong with applying the same to celebrating three English teams beating three German clubs, providing it's good natured and stops at that.

I strongly disagree that tribalism is so inherent that it needs to be 'redirected' rather than simply learned-out. Community is inherent, but that doesn't have to come with rivalry vs. other communities.

Part of the reason I dislike organised sports is that they encourage the tribalistic behaviour you describe. It never seems to be "I love my team" (community), it always seems to be "I hate that team" (rivalry).

Do they encourage rivalry, or do the rivalries arise spontaneously? The competitive aspect certainly encourages support not just for your team doing well, but for your rivals doing poorly, and it demands that you want your team to beat others, but that competitiveness seems pretty inherent in almost all sports and games - it even spills over into sports that should be considered non-competitive, like mountain climbing. That's a player vs environment game (yeah this is a videogame forum, deal with it), but even there there is a strong focus on being the first to achieve something or racing to the top. The sport doesn't need to be competitive at all, but that aspect arises naturally anyway.

In both sport and looking back through history, the melding of community often seems to be a direct response to competition. I'm a long time ice hockey fan, and there it is obvious. As individual clubs there are rivalries between cities. The English rivals will come together, as will the Scottish, to support the national sides (there is often a England vs Scotland friendly during the play-offs). All of them will then come together to support Team GB internationally. It's the existence of a greater "other" that brings the community together.

There are plenty of things that define someone's identity and make them feel part of a single society. Familiarity with each other, a common language, common culture, but also a common "enemy". I think the existence of antagonists in almost every culture's identity is the evidence for tribalism being inherently human. I don't know of any examples where tribalism hasn't played a role, even amongst the most rational of populations. Science is full of rival teams racing to discover something first. All the greatest achievements in space exploration have been driven by competition between nation states. I can't back it up with studies (so really it's just like my opinion, man), but tribalism just seems to be inherent wherever I look. Even politics that is explicitly concerned with equality for all has so much rhetoric based on an "us" vs "them".

To bring it back to Europe, tribalist arguments are present on the remain side when people argue that being in the EU is necessary to compete on the world stage against the US, Russia and China. The argument there isn't that the EU community is a great place to be, it's that the community is necessary to rival those opposing superpowers. I still think that's a fine argument to make.

[Moggy]

MPs to vote on second referendum

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 22636.html

The banana splits will vote it down.

[Tafdolphin]

I could potentially have to uproot my entire life if any kind of Brexit occurs, let alone a no deal. Being a freelancer with no salary, married to a French freelancer with no salary, with both of us living in France this could seriously affect not only my living situation but my marriage.

I feel quite comfortable calling anyone still supporting Brexit a banana split at this point.

strawberry floating sue me.

[Hexx]

MPs to vote on second referendum

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 22636.html

Lab 3 Lining Whiping to Abstain. 'Now is not the time, let's focus on Extension". To be fair the People's Vote group aren't pushing for the vote today either

[NickSCFC]

MPs to vote on second referendum

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 22636.html

The banana splits will vote it down.

If anything it'll make things look clearer.

[jawafour]

Yes, that’s why I said it about those “anybody still supporting No Deal” not “everyone who voted Leave”...

Yes, I got the distinction and I am in agreement.

(I am not speaking about Jawa here, I have no idea what his views are.)...

...I think it's the responsibility of centrists to make sure they are the first kind and not the second kind.

I can confirm that I'd like to think I am in the former, Karl... although I'll let folk make their own decision on that by looking at my posts :-) .

...For no reason other than the whim of racist idiots and baby boomers nostalgic for a post WW2 Britain they didn't even live through properly. They don't deserve any kind of civility.

I get your point, Tomous, with regard to baby boomers and potentially how the majority of them voted; but I wondered if you hold equal disdain for younger folk who didn't vote? To be clear, I'm not talking about young folk of 18 now who weren't eligible to vote in 2016; I mean younger folk who were entitled to vote and didn't.

[Moggy]

I could potentially have to uproot my entire life if any kind of Brexit occurs, let alone a no deal. Being a freelancer with no salary, married to a French freelancer with no salary, with both of us living in France this could seriously affect not only my living situation but my marriage.

I feel quite comfortable calling anyone still supporting Brexit a banana split at this point.

strawberry floating sue me.

And this is what Brexit has done. It is perfectly feasible that in 15 days time Taf will have to leave his wife as he will not be allowed to stay in France and she will not be allowed to come to the UK.

banana splits is a mild word to describe people that support that.

[That]

@OrangeRKN: Sorry for not doing a more thorough response, but I think this is the crux of it:

...It's the existence of a greater "other" that brings the community together...

I understand that this is an aspect of community-building at this stage in our cultural evolution, but it genuinely horrifies me. I think we will eventually out-grow that urge. It's not necessary to put others down to connect with your own community.

[Moggy]

I get your point, Tomous, with regard to baby boomers and potentially how the majority of them voted; but I wondered if you hold equal disdain for younger folk who didn't vote? To be clear, I'm not talking about young folk of 18 now who weren't eligible to vote in 2016; I mean younger folk who were entitled to vote and didn't.

Tomous can answer for himself, but for me the young people that didn’t vote are nowhere near as bad as the older people that did vote Leave.

Voting Leave was an active choice. Not voting was arrogance (“Remain will win easily!”) or apathy (“Meh what’s the point of voting?”).

But it’s all water under the bridge. If we ever get another vote then we can rejudge the oldies and the youngies.

[Tafdolphin]

I could potentially have to uproot my entire life if any kind of Brexit occurs, let alone a no deal. Being a freelancer with no salary, married to a French freelancer with no salary, with both of us living in France this could seriously affect not only my living situation but my marriage.

I feel quite comfortable calling anyone still supporting Brexit a banana split at this point.

strawberry floating sue me.

And this is what Brexit has done. It is perfectly feasible that in 15 days time Taf will have to leave his wife as he will not be allowed to stay in France and she will not be allowed to come to the UK.

banana splits is a mild word to describe people that support that.

I don't mind admitting for emphasis that the last 2 days have been preternaturally stressful for me, and I had a mild panic attack this morning forcing me to cancel a load of plans for the day.

strawberry float anyone still supporting this gooseberry fool.

[Tomous]

...For no reason other than the whim of racist idiots and baby boomers nostalgic for a post WW2 Britain they didn't even live through properly. They don't deserve any kind of civility.

I get your point, Tomous, with regard to baby boomers and potentially how the majority of them voted; but I wondered if you hold equal disdain for younger folk who didn't vote? To be clear, I'm not talking about young folk of 18 now who weren't eligible to vote in 2016; I mean younger folk who were entitled to vote and didn't.

To be clear, I don't hold any disdain whatsoever for people who voted leave in 2016. If the referendum was binding, it would be ruled illegal due to illegal campaigning and foreign interference. It was full of lies and people didn't know what they voting for. Equally, I don't think people knew its' full importance either so I don't blame people who didn't show up. So I don't blame anyone for 2016.

My disdain is for people who still hold the leave position today.

[Moggy]

I could potentially have to uproot my entire life if any kind of Brexit occurs, let alone a no deal. Being a freelancer with no salary, married to a French freelancer with no salary, with both of us living in France this could seriously affect not only my living situation but my marriage.

I feel quite comfortable calling anyone still supporting Brexit a banana split at this point.

strawberry floating sue me.

And this is what Brexit has done. It is perfectly feasible that in 15 days time Taf will have to leave his wife as he will not be allowed to stay in France and she will not be allowed to come to the UK.

banana splits is a mild word to describe people that support that.

I don't mind admitting for emphasis that the last 2 days have been preternaturally stressful for me, and I had a mild panic attack this morning forcing me to cancel a load of plans for the day.

strawberry float anyone still supporting this gooseberry fool.

Would a \ / joke cheer you up?

[Tomous]

MPs to vote on second referendum

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 22636.html

This is their way out of this mess, but it won't get enough votes.

[Tafdolphin]

I could potentially have to uproot my entire life if any kind of Brexit occurs, let alone a no deal. Being a freelancer with no salary, married to a French freelancer with no salary, with both of us living in France this could seriously affect not only my living situation but my marriage.

I feel quite comfortable calling anyone still supporting Brexit a banana split at this point.

strawberry floating sue me.

And this is what Brexit has done. It is perfectly feasible that in 15 days time Taf will have to leave his wife as he will not be allowed to stay in France and she will not be allowed to come to the UK.

banana splits is a mild word to describe people that support that.

I don't mind admitting for emphasis that the last 2 days have been preternaturally stressful for me, and I had a mild panic attack this morning forcing me to cancel a load of plans for the day.

strawberry float anyone still supporting this gooseberry fool.

Would a \ / joke cheer you up?

\o/

I wonder if I actually could fit a little circle in there...

[jawafour]

...for me the young people that didn’t vote are nowhere near as bad as the older people that did vote Leave.

Voting Leave was an active choice. Not voting was arrogance (“Remain will win easily!”) or apathy (“Meh what’s the point of voting?”)...

I get super-frustrated when people do not take their chance to vote. This was a big decision and I do wonder if the outcome may have differed if everyone had made the effort to vote. As you say, it's water under the bridge now and we have to work with where we are.

[OrangeRKN]

@OrangeRKN: Sorry for not doing a more thorough response, but I think this is the crux of it:

...It's the existence of a greater "other" that brings the community together...

I understand that this is an aspect of community-building at this stage in our cultural evolution, but it genuinely horrifies me. I think we will eventually out-grow that urge. It's not necessary to put others down to connect with your own community.

Sounds like a more optimistic view than I have, but (honestly not just trying to catch you out) when you call it an "urge" is that not an acknowledgment of it being a natural (and inherent) aspect of humanity?

I don't disagree that it's a bad aspect, but my argument is that it's much easier to manage such tendencies by redirecting them into harmless areas (team sports), than it is to try and unlearn them. I guess that your counter-argument is that encouraging tribalism in team sports counteracts attempts to unlearn it as a whole. I see the logic, but I don't think it's a pragmatic approach.

[Moggy]

...for me the young people that didn’t vote are nowhere near as bad as the older people that did vote Leave.

Voting Leave was an active choice. Not voting was arrogance (“Remain will win easily!”) or apathy (“Meh what’s the point of voting?”)...

I get super-frustrated when people do not take their chance to vote. This was a big decision and I do wonder if the outcome may have differed if everyone had made the effort to vote. As you say, it's water under the bridge now and we have to work with where we are.

The result probably would have been different if everyone had voted, but without compulsory voting it is never going to happen.

[OrangeRKN]

I would rather someone who is uninformed on the subject doesn't vote than is forced to. Either way you look at it it's just an argument against direct democracy and in favour of representative democracy.

i.e. the referendum was a terrible idea in the first place

[Moggy]

twitter.com/jimmfelton/status/1106198271943458816