Brexit Thread 2

Fed up talking videogames? Why?

How would you vote if we had to vote again?

Leave
12
7%
Remain
159
93%
 
Total votes: 171
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Garth
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Garth » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:54 pm



Looks like the unions also back a referendum with Remain option if Labour is in power and has their own deal with the EU:
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KK
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by KK » Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:47 pm

8:30pm tonight and iPlayer:

No-Deal Brexit: Are We Ready? - Panorama

Jane Corbin examines the potential impact of leaving the EU without a deal, meeting those who fear financial ruin as well as those who see it as an opportunity to be embraced.

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Lagamorph
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Lagamorph » Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:10 pm




Lagamorph's Underwater Photography Thread
Zellery wrote:Good post Lagamorph.
Turboman wrote:Lagomorph..... Is ..... Right
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Hyperion
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Hyperion » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:40 am

I mean strawberry floating hell Labour fudge upon fudge

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Samuel_1
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Samuel_1 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:50 am

Hyperion wrote:I mean strawberry floating hell Labour fudge upon fudge

They're backing a confirmatory vote, that's good news, isn't it?

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Hexx
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Hexx » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:59 am

So..

If Tory Deal, Lab want 2nd Referendum, Lab will back remain

If Lab Deal, Lab want 2nd referendum, Lab will back...oh look over there a squirrel!

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Jenuall
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Jenuall » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:02 am

Hexx wrote:So..

If Tory Deal, Lab want 2nd Referendum, Lab will back remain

If Lab Deal, Lab want 2nd referendum, Lab will back...oh look over there a squirrel!


Well the first option is a known quantity - the Tory deal exists and is gooseberry fool, therefore backing remain is the best choice.

The second scenario seems to be holding judgement in case some magic allows Labour to find a new deal that is better (although we all know that can't happen!)

Edit: likelihood is that the Union position will be "back remain" in that instance as well.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Samuel_1 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:04 am

Hexx wrote:So..

If Tory Deal, Lab want 2nd Referendum, Lab will back remain

If Lab Deal, Lab want 2nd referendum, Lab will back...oh look over there a squirrel!

Does it matter what they back in the second instance? They will offer a vote in both scenarios.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:14 am

Samuel_1 wrote:
Hexx wrote:So..

If Tory Deal, Lab want 2nd Referendum, Lab will back remain

If Lab Deal, Lab want 2nd referendum, Lab will back...oh look over there a squirrel!

Does it matter what they back in the second instance? They will offer a vote in both scenarios.


We have until 31 October. Labour should be there NOW campaigning to get a second referendum in place. Instead it is more “yeah we will not go with the Tory deal but we can do a better deal if we win a general election…..”. There just isn’t the time for Labour to somehow collapse the government, hold a general election, win it and then get another referendum through.

The EU will probably extend the deadline again if there is a GE or referendum, but there is no guarantee of that.

I do welcome Labour backing a further referendum, but this does appear to be more fudging and delaying.

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Samuel_1
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Samuel_1 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:21 am

Moggy wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Hexx wrote:So..

If Tory Deal, Lab want 2nd Referendum, Lab will back remain

If Lab Deal, Lab want 2nd referendum, Lab will back...oh look over there a squirrel!

Does it matter what they back in the second instance? They will offer a vote in both scenarios.


We have until 31 October. Labour should be there NOW campaigning to get a second referendum in place. Instead it is more “yeah we will not go with the Tory deal but we can do a better deal if we win a general election…..”. There just isn’t the time for Labour to somehow collapse the government, hold a general election, win it and then get another referendum through.

The EU will probably extend the deadline again if there is a GE or referendum, but there is no guarantee of that.

I do welcome Labour backing a further referendum, but this does appear to be more fudging and delaying.

It is at least a step in the right direction, a statement of intent. It is unlikely that the Tories will allow a GE to happen, ergo the de facto position for Labour will be the backing of a second referendum (they actually state this outcome either way). It will be very interesting to see what this does to their polling.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:27 am

Samuel_1 wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Hexx wrote:So..

If Tory Deal, Lab want 2nd Referendum, Lab will back remain

If Lab Deal, Lab want 2nd referendum, Lab will back...oh look over there a squirrel!

Does it matter what they back in the second instance? They will offer a vote in both scenarios.


We have until 31 October. Labour should be there NOW campaigning to get a second referendum in place. Instead it is more “yeah we will not go with the Tory deal but we can do a better deal if we win a general election…..”. There just isn’t the time for Labour to somehow collapse the government, hold a general election, win it and then get another referendum through.

The EU will probably extend the deadline again if there is a GE or referendum, but there is no guarantee of that.

I do welcome Labour backing a further referendum, but this does appear to be more fudging and delaying.

It is at least a step in the right direction, a statement of intent. It is unlikely that the Tories will allow a GE to happen, ergo the de facto position for Labour will be the backing of a second referendum (they actually state this outcome either way). It will be very interesting to see what this does to their polling.


It’s a step in the right direction. But after 3 years they have only moved forward one step, when we need to travel thousands of miles.

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Jenuall
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Jenuall » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:31 am

Moggy wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Hexx wrote:So..

If Tory Deal, Lab want 2nd Referendum, Lab will back remain

If Lab Deal, Lab want 2nd referendum, Lab will back...oh look over there a squirrel!

Does it matter what they back in the second instance? They will offer a vote in both scenarios.


We have until 31 October. Labour should be there NOW campaigning to get a second referendum in place. Instead it is more “yeah we will not go with the Tory deal but we can do a better deal if we win a general election…..”. There just isn’t the time for Labour to somehow collapse the government, hold a general election, win it and then get another referendum through.

The EU will probably extend the deadline again if there is a GE or referendum, but there is no guarantee of that.

I do welcome Labour backing a further referendum, but this does appear to be more fudging and delaying.

It is at least a step in the right direction, a statement of intent. It is unlikely that the Tories will allow a GE to happen, ergo the de facto position for Labour will be the backing of a second referendum (they actually state this outcome either way). It will be very interesting to see what this does to their polling.


It’s a step in the right direction. But after 3 years they have only moved forward one step, when we need to travel thousands of miles.

The reality is we only need one step - cancel Brexit. One simple move that offers objectively the best outcome for the largest number of people. It should be strawberry floating simple.

But yes, the fact that so many people seem to be thousands of miles from realising this is genuinely depressing. :cry:

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Samuel_1 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:37 am

Jenuall wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Hexx wrote:So..

If Tory Deal, Lab want 2nd Referendum, Lab will back remain

If Lab Deal, Lab want 2nd referendum, Lab will back...oh look over there a squirrel!

Does it matter what they back in the second instance? They will offer a vote in both scenarios.


We have until 31 October. Labour should be there NOW campaigning to get a second referendum in place. Instead it is more “yeah we will not go with the Tory deal but we can do a better deal if we win a general election…..”. There just isn’t the time for Labour to somehow collapse the government, hold a general election, win it and then get another referendum through.

The EU will probably extend the deadline again if there is a GE or referendum, but there is no guarantee of that.

I do welcome Labour backing a further referendum, but this does appear to be more fudging and delaying.

It is at least a step in the right direction, a statement of intent. It is unlikely that the Tories will allow a GE to happen, ergo the de facto position for Labour will be the backing of a second referendum (they actually state this outcome either way). It will be very interesting to see what this does to their polling.


It’s a step in the right direction. But after 3 years they have only moved forward one step, when we need to travel thousands of miles.

The reality is we only need one step - cancel Brexit. One simple move that offers objectively the best outcome for the largest number of people. It should be strawberry floating simple.

But yes, the fact that so many people seem to be thousands of miles from realising this is genuinely depressing. :cry:

I'm not sure just cancelling it is the best move. Many will say that it make a mockery of our democratic system and though I disagree wholeheartedly with their views on Brexit, I couldn't really argue. A second referendum is probably our best option, Brexiteers won't like that either, but at least it will be democratic. Then again, I suppose there is the possibility that leavers could win again, which would leave everyone in a worse position, one of the 'solutions' are without issue.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:39 am

Jenuall wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Hexx wrote:So..

If Tory Deal, Lab want 2nd Referendum, Lab will back remain

If Lab Deal, Lab want 2nd referendum, Lab will back...oh look over there a squirrel!

Does it matter what they back in the second instance? They will offer a vote in both scenarios.


We have until 31 October. Labour should be there NOW campaigning to get a second referendum in place. Instead it is more “yeah we will not go with the Tory deal but we can do a better deal if we win a general election…..”. There just isn’t the time for Labour to somehow collapse the government, hold a general election, win it and then get another referendum through.

The EU will probably extend the deadline again if there is a GE or referendum, but there is no guarantee of that.

I do welcome Labour backing a further referendum, but this does appear to be more fudging and delaying.

It is at least a step in the right direction, a statement of intent. It is unlikely that the Tories will allow a GE to happen, ergo the de facto position for Labour will be the backing of a second referendum (they actually state this outcome either way). It will be very interesting to see what this does to their polling.


It’s a step in the right direction. But after 3 years they have only moved forward one step, when we need to travel thousands of miles.

The reality is we only need one step - cancel Brexit. One simple move that offers objectively the best outcome for the largest number of people. It should be strawberry floating simple.

But yes, the fact that so many people seem to be thousands of miles from realising this is genuinely depressing. :cry:


I totally get that we can’t just cancel it, politically speaking it would rip this country to shreds and give an extraordinary amount of ammunition to people like Farage.

The only way of ending this mess is via a referendum. And I don’t think a Labour Deal v Remain is going to solve things either, Farage and the Tories will scream betrayal and in a way they would be right.

It’s pretty clear that the Tory deal is dead and the EU are not prepared to renegotiate the mythical Labour deal. We’d have to have No Deal v Remain. Which is risky of course, but I think Remain would win comfortably.

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Samuel_1
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Samuel_1 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:44 am

Moggy wrote:
Jenuall wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Hexx wrote:So..

If Tory Deal, Lab want 2nd Referendum, Lab will back remain

If Lab Deal, Lab want 2nd referendum, Lab will back...oh look over there a squirrel!

Does it matter what they back in the second instance? They will offer a vote in both scenarios.


We have until 31 October. Labour should be there NOW campaigning to get a second referendum in place. Instead it is more “yeah we will not go with the Tory deal but we can do a better deal if we win a general election…..”. There just isn’t the time for Labour to somehow collapse the government, hold a general election, win it and then get another referendum through.

The EU will probably extend the deadline again if there is a GE or referendum, but there is no guarantee of that.

I do welcome Labour backing a further referendum, but this does appear to be more fudging and delaying.

It is at least a step in the right direction, a statement of intent. It is unlikely that the Tories will allow a GE to happen, ergo the de facto position for Labour will be the backing of a second referendum (they actually state this outcome either way). It will be very interesting to see what this does to their polling.


It’s a step in the right direction. But after 3 years they have only moved forward one step, when we need to travel thousands of miles.

The reality is we only need one step - cancel Brexit. One simple move that offers objectively the best outcome for the largest number of people. It should be strawberry floating simple.

But yes, the fact that so many people seem to be thousands of miles from realising this is genuinely depressing. :cry:


I totally get that we can’t just cancel it, politically speaking it would rip this country to shreds and give an extraordinary amount of ammunition to people like Farage.

The only way of ending this mess is via a referendum. And I don’t think a Labour Deal v Remain is going to solve things either, Farage and the Tories will scream betrayal and in a way they would be right.

It’s pretty clear that the Tory deal is dead and the EU are not prepared to renegotiate the mythical Labour deal. We’d have to have No Deal v Remain. Which is risky of course, but I think Remain would win comfortably.

I disagree, I don't think we should have another binary referendum. In my opinion we should have the following options: Tory Deal, No Deal or Remain. I think in that way we could split the Brexit vote and ensure a clear mandate for remain, FINGERS strawberry floating CROSSED...

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Jenuall
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Jenuall » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:45 am

Moggy wrote:
Jenuall wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Hexx wrote:So..

If Tory Deal, Lab want 2nd Referendum, Lab will back remain

If Lab Deal, Lab want 2nd referendum, Lab will back...oh look over there a squirrel!

Does it matter what they back in the second instance? They will offer a vote in both scenarios.


We have until 31 October. Labour should be there NOW campaigning to get a second referendum in place. Instead it is more “yeah we will not go with the Tory deal but we can do a better deal if we win a general election…..”. There just isn’t the time for Labour to somehow collapse the government, hold a general election, win it and then get another referendum through.

The EU will probably extend the deadline again if there is a GE or referendum, but there is no guarantee of that.

I do welcome Labour backing a further referendum, but this does appear to be more fudging and delaying.

It is at least a step in the right direction, a statement of intent. It is unlikely that the Tories will allow a GE to happen, ergo the de facto position for Labour will be the backing of a second referendum (they actually state this outcome either way). It will be very interesting to see what this does to their polling.


It’s a step in the right direction. But after 3 years they have only moved forward one step, when we need to travel thousands of miles.

The reality is we only need one step - cancel Brexit. One simple move that offers objectively the best outcome for the largest number of people. It should be strawberry floating simple.

But yes, the fact that so many people seem to be thousands of miles from realising this is genuinely depressing. :cry:


I totally get that we can’t just cancel it, politically speaking it would rip this country to shreds and give an extraordinary amount of ammunition to people like Farage.

The only way of ending this mess is via a referendum. And I don’t think a Labour Deal v Remain is going to solve things either, Farage and the Tories will scream betrayal and in a way they would be right.

It’s pretty clear that the Tory deal is dead and the EU are not prepared to renegotiate the mythical Labour deal. We’d have to have No Deal v Remain. Which is risky of course, but I think Remain would win comfortably.

Yeah I broadly meant via a 2nd referendum rather than outright cancel as that's the more politically safe approach.

But also it was never a binding referendum in the first place. The role of government is to act in the best interests of the citizens. You want us to look into leaving the EU? Fine we've looked into it and it's a bad idea on basically every level - should the Government still be compelled to pursue the idea at that point?

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Tomous
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Tomous » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:46 am

Moggy wrote:
Jenuall wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Hexx wrote:So..

If Tory Deal, Lab want 2nd Referendum, Lab will back remain

If Lab Deal, Lab want 2nd referendum, Lab will back...oh look over there a squirrel!

Does it matter what they back in the second instance? They will offer a vote in both scenarios.


We have until 31 October. Labour should be there NOW campaigning to get a second referendum in place. Instead it is more “yeah we will not go with the Tory deal but we can do a better deal if we win a general election…..”. There just isn’t the time for Labour to somehow collapse the government, hold a general election, win it and then get another referendum through.

The EU will probably extend the deadline again if there is a GE or referendum, but there is no guarantee of that.

I do welcome Labour backing a further referendum, but this does appear to be more fudging and delaying.

It is at least a step in the right direction, a statement of intent. It is unlikely that the Tories will allow a GE to happen, ergo the de facto position for Labour will be the backing of a second referendum (they actually state this outcome either way). It will be very interesting to see what this does to their polling.


It’s a step in the right direction. But after 3 years they have only moved forward one step, when we need to travel thousands of miles.

The reality is we only need one step - cancel Brexit. One simple move that offers objectively the best outcome for the largest number of people. It should be strawberry floating simple.

But yes, the fact that so many people seem to be thousands of miles from realising this is genuinely depressing. :cry:


I totally get that we can’t just cancel it, politically speaking it would rip this country to shreds and give an extraordinary amount of ammunition to people like Farage.

The only way of ending this mess is via a referendum. And I don’t think a Labour Deal v Remain is going to solve things either, Farage and the Tories will scream betrayal and in a way they would be right.

It’s pretty clear that the Tory deal is dead and the EU are not prepared to renegotiate the mythical Labour deal. We’d have to have No Deal v Remain. Which is risky of course, but I think Remain would win comfortably.


I agree. I can't see Remain losing a vote like that.

Remain voters would still vote remain but not all brexit voters would vote No Deal. Yes, Faragae and all would galvanise support and scream WE'VE BEEN BETRAYED but I would hope the Remain side would and a lot of the apathetic people in 2016 who didn't pay enough attention would turn up.

Would be terrifying watching the results come in though :dread:

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:52 am

Samuel_1 wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Jenuall wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Hexx wrote:So..

If Tory Deal, Lab want 2nd Referendum, Lab will back remain

If Lab Deal, Lab want 2nd referendum, Lab will back...oh look over there a squirrel!

Does it matter what they back in the second instance? They will offer a vote in both scenarios.


We have until 31 October. Labour should be there NOW campaigning to get a second referendum in place. Instead it is more “yeah we will not go with the Tory deal but we can do a better deal if we win a general election…..”. There just isn’t the time for Labour to somehow collapse the government, hold a general election, win it and then get another referendum through.

The EU will probably extend the deadline again if there is a GE or referendum, but there is no guarantee of that.

I do welcome Labour backing a further referendum, but this does appear to be more fudging and delaying.

It is at least a step in the right direction, a statement of intent. It is unlikely that the Tories will allow a GE to happen, ergo the de facto position for Labour will be the backing of a second referendum (they actually state this outcome either way). It will be very interesting to see what this does to their polling.


It’s a step in the right direction. But after 3 years they have only moved forward one step, when we need to travel thousands of miles.

The reality is we only need one step - cancel Brexit. One simple move that offers objectively the best outcome for the largest number of people. It should be strawberry floating simple.

But yes, the fact that so many people seem to be thousands of miles from realising this is genuinely depressing. :cry:


I totally get that we can’t just cancel it, politically speaking it would rip this country to shreds and give an extraordinary amount of ammunition to people like Farage.

The only way of ending this mess is via a referendum. And I don’t think a Labour Deal v Remain is going to solve things either, Farage and the Tories will scream betrayal and in a way they would be right.

It’s pretty clear that the Tory deal is dead and the EU are not prepared to renegotiate the mythical Labour deal. We’d have to have No Deal v Remain. Which is risky of course, but I think Remain would win comfortably.

I disagree, I don't think we should have another binary referendum. In my opinion we should have the following options: Tory Deal, No Deal or Remain. I think in that way we could split the Brexit vote and ensure a clear mandate for remain, FINGERS strawberry floating CROSSED...


A three way (no context thread) wouldn’t solve anything. Farage and co would (rightly!) scream betrayal as you split the Leave vote.

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Errkal
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Errkal » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:53 am

The only way to make people take the rust would be to do the following (I think)

3 options:
Remain
No Deal
Tory Deal

The totals of option 2 and 3 get combined so we decide leave or remain (so as to prevent arguments of a split vote), if leave wins you decide the type of leave by which ever of options 2 and 3 is bigger.

It means it would be damn close, but I don’t see how you can do it and represent what’s actually possible without doing it that way.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 2
by Moggy » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:56 am

Tomous wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Jenuall wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Samuel_1 wrote:
Hexx wrote:So..

If Tory Deal, Lab want 2nd Referendum, Lab will back remain

If Lab Deal, Lab want 2nd referendum, Lab will back...oh look over there a squirrel!

Does it matter what they back in the second instance? They will offer a vote in both scenarios.


We have until 31 October. Labour should be there NOW campaigning to get a second referendum in place. Instead it is more “yeah we will not go with the Tory deal but we can do a better deal if we win a general election…..”. There just isn’t the time for Labour to somehow collapse the government, hold a general election, win it and then get another referendum through.

The EU will probably extend the deadline again if there is a GE or referendum, but there is no guarantee of that.

I do welcome Labour backing a further referendum, but this does appear to be more fudging and delaying.

It is at least a step in the right direction, a statement of intent. It is unlikely that the Tories will allow a GE to happen, ergo the de facto position for Labour will be the backing of a second referendum (they actually state this outcome either way). It will be very interesting to see what this does to their polling.


It’s a step in the right direction. But after 3 years they have only moved forward one step, when we need to travel thousands of miles.

The reality is we only need one step - cancel Brexit. One simple move that offers objectively the best outcome for the largest number of people. It should be strawberry floating simple.

But yes, the fact that so many people seem to be thousands of miles from realising this is genuinely depressing. :cry:


I totally get that we can’t just cancel it, politically speaking it would rip this country to shreds and give an extraordinary amount of ammunition to people like Farage.

The only way of ending this mess is via a referendum. And I don’t think a Labour Deal v Remain is going to solve things either, Farage and the Tories will scream betrayal and in a way they would be right.

It’s pretty clear that the Tory deal is dead and the EU are not prepared to renegotiate the mythical Labour deal. We’d have to have No Deal v Remain. Which is risky of course, but I think Remain would win comfortably.


I agree. I can't see Remain losing a vote like that.

Remain voters would still vote remain but not all brexit voters would vote No Deal. Yes, Faragae and all would galvanise support and scream WE'VE BEEN BETRAYED but I would hope the Remain side would and a lot of the apathetic people in 2016 who didn't pay enough attention would turn up.

Would be terrifying watching the results come in though :dread:


Farage will always shout about betrayal, it’s what he does, but he wouldn’t have much of a basis for it if No Deal was up against Remain. He will try of course, but we could rightly point out that he wanted a deal before the 2016 referendum and that he has since claimed he wants No Deal. What’s he scared of?

I think he’d have a point with a three way vote and he’d definitely have a point if it was all just cancelled. But his beloved “WTO” Brexit? He can’t shout too loud that it is unfair without revealing just what a pile of gooseberry fool idea it is.

But yeah it would be terrifying, even if it is our best hope.


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