Brexit Thread 2

[Moggy]

The only way to make people take the rust would be to do the following (I think)

3 options:
Remain
No Deal
Tory Deal

The totals of option 2 and 3 get combined so we decide leave or remain (so as to prevent arguments of a split vote), if leave wins you decide the type of leave by which ever of options 2 and 3 is bigger.

It means it would be damn close, but I don’t see how you can do it and represent what’s actually possible without doing it that way.

That wouldn't work as it is confusing and would lead to people voting for the wrong thing. People are also annoyed at the thought of voting, proposing another two referendums would not go down well.

[Errkal]

The only way to make people take the rust would be to do the following (I think)

3 options:
Remain
No Deal
Tory Deal

The totals of option 2 and 3 get combined so we decide leave or remain (so as to prevent arguments of a split vote), if leave wins you decide the type of leave by which ever of options 2 and 3 is bigger.

It means it would be damn close, but I don’t see how you can do it and represent what’s actually possible without doing it that way.

That wouldn't work as it is confusing and would lead to people voting for the wrong thing. People are also annoyed at the thought of voting, proposing another two referendums would not go down well.

It’s not 2 referendums it’s 1 referendum.

You get 3 totals from that vote and they are used in 2 rounds of sorts.

Round 1 is total 1 against totals 2 +3

If the leave options are greater you use those totals to determine which leave option is used.

[Errkal]

The only way to make people take the rust would be to do the following (I think)

3 options:
Remain
No Deal
Tory Deal

The totals of option 2 and 3 get combined so we decide leave or remain (so as to prevent arguments of a split vote), if leave wins you decide the type of leave by which ever of options 2 and 3 is bigger.

It means it would be damn close, but I don’t see how you can do it and represent what’s actually possible without doing it that way.

That wouldn't work as it is confusing and would lead to people voting for the wrong thing. People are also annoyed at the thought of voting, proposing another two referendums would not go down well.

It’s not 2 referendums it’s 1 referendum.

You get 3 totals from that vote and they are used in 2 rounds of sorts.

Round 1 is total 1 against totals 2 +3

If the leave options are greater you use those totals to determine which leave option is used.

The other option sis 2 questions.

Q1: Leave or Remain
Q2: If leaver wins, Conservative Deal or No Deal

On the same ballot and use your Q2 in the even Leave wins to determine which leave.

[Moggy]

The only way to make people take the rust would be to do the following (I think)

3 options:
Remain
No Deal
Tory Deal

The totals of option 2 and 3 get combined so we decide leave or remain (so as to prevent arguments of a split vote), if leave wins you decide the type of leave by which ever of options 2 and 3 is bigger.

It means it would be damn close, but I don’t see how you can do it and represent what’s actually possible without doing it that way.

That wouldn't work as it is confusing and would lead to people voting for the wrong thing. People are also annoyed at the thought of voting, proposing another two referendums would not go down well.

It’s not 2 referendums it’s 1 referendum.

You get 3 totals from that vote and they are used in 2 rounds of sorts.

Round 1 is total 1 against totals 2 +3

If the leave options are greater you use those totals to determine which leave option is used.

The other option sis 2 questions.

Q1: Leave or Remain
Q2: If leaver wins, Conservative Deal or No Deal

On the same ballot and use your Q2 in the even Leave wins to determine which leave.

Ahh I see.

I don’t like it as it gives Leaving too much of a chance of winning.

[Tomous]

Edit: misunderstood Errkal's post.

Based on your clarification, I think that's how we should do a possible referendum too.

[Samuel_1]

So..

If Tory Deal, Lab want 2nd Referendum, Lab will back remain

If Lab Deal, Lab want 2nd referendum, Lab will back...oh look over there a squirrel!

Does it matter what they back in the second instance? They will offer a vote in both scenarios.

We have until 31 October. Labour should be there NOW campaigning to get a second referendum in place. Instead it is more “yeah we will not go with the Tory deal but we can do a better deal if we win a general election…..”. There just isn’t the time for Labour to somehow collapse the government, hold a general election, win it and then get another referendum through.

The EU will probably extend the deadline again if there is a GE or referendum, but there is no guarantee of that.

I do welcome Labour backing a further referendum, but this does appear to be more fudging and delaying.

It is at least a step in the right direction, a statement of intent. It is unlikely that the Tories will allow a GE to happen, ergo the de facto position for Labour will be the backing of a second referendum (they actually state this outcome either way). It will be very interesting to see what this does to their polling.

It’s a step in the right direction. But after 3 years they have only moved forward one step, when we need to travel thousands of miles.

The reality is we only need one step - cancel Brexit. One simple move that offers objectively the best outcome for the largest number of people. It should be strawberry floating simple.

But yes, the fact that so many people seem to be thousands of miles from realising this is genuinely depressing.

I totally get that we can’t just cancel it, politically speaking it would rip this country to shreds and give an extraordinary amount of ammunition to people like Farage.

The only way of ending this mess is via a referendum. And I don’t think a Labour Deal v Remain is going to solve things either, Farage and the Tories will scream betrayal and in a way they would be right.

It’s pretty clear that the Tory deal is dead and the EU are not prepared to renegotiate the mythical Labour deal. We’d have to have No Deal v Remain. Which is risky of course, but I think Remain would win comfortably.

I think trying to have a No deal vs Remain ref would be problematic, I can't see that option getting though parliament. Surely the Tories who support May's deal would vote it down and those who don't want a second ref would vote it down. I mean it might get through, but I'm not so sure.

[Moggy]

So..

If Tory Deal, Lab want 2nd Referendum, Lab will back remain

If Lab Deal, Lab want 2nd referendum, Lab will back...oh look over there a squirrel!

Does it matter what they back in the second instance? They will offer a vote in both scenarios.

We have until 31 October. Labour should be there NOW campaigning to get a second referendum in place. Instead it is more “yeah we will not go with the Tory deal but we can do a better deal if we win a general election…..”. There just isn’t the time for Labour to somehow collapse the government, hold a general election, win it and then get another referendum through.

The EU will probably extend the deadline again if there is a GE or referendum, but there is no guarantee of that.

I do welcome Labour backing a further referendum, but this does appear to be more fudging and delaying.

It is at least a step in the right direction, a statement of intent. It is unlikely that the Tories will allow a GE to happen, ergo the de facto position for Labour will be the backing of a second referendum (they actually state this outcome either way). It will be very interesting to see what this does to their polling.

It’s a step in the right direction. But after 3 years they have only moved forward one step, when we need to travel thousands of miles.

The reality is we only need one step - cancel Brexit. One simple move that offers objectively the best outcome for the largest number of people. It should be strawberry floating simple.

But yes, the fact that so many people seem to be thousands of miles from realising this is genuinely depressing.

I totally get that we can’t just cancel it, politically speaking it would rip this country to shreds and give an extraordinary amount of ammunition to people like Farage.

The only way of ending this mess is via a referendum. And I don’t think a Labour Deal v Remain is going to solve things either, Farage and the Tories will scream betrayal and in a way they would be right.

It’s pretty clear that the Tory deal is dead and the EU are not prepared to renegotiate the mythical Labour deal. We’d have to have No Deal v Remain. Which is risky of course, but I think Remain would win comfortably.

I think trying to have a No deal vs Remain ref would be problematic, I can't see that option getting though parliament. Surely the Tories who support May's deal would vote it down and those who don't want a second ref would vote it down. I mean it might get through, but I'm not so sure.

I don’t think such a referendum would get through, but I think that is the only way of ending it.

There were a lot of flaws with the 2016 referendum, but one of the biggest was allowing it to go ahead without a clearly defined definition of what “Leave” meant. That allowed the liars and conmen to pretend to be all things to all people. They effortlessly switched from “Norway” to “WTO only” as they had no clear position in the first place. They should have been forced to write down exactly what Leaving meant.

[Samuel_1]

So..

If Tory Deal, Lab want 2nd Referendum, Lab will back remain

If Lab Deal, Lab want 2nd referendum, Lab will back...oh look over there a squirrel!

Does it matter what they back in the second instance? They will offer a vote in both scenarios.

We have until 31 October. Labour should be there NOW campaigning to get a second referendum in place. Instead it is more “yeah we will not go with the Tory deal but we can do a better deal if we win a general election…..”. There just isn’t the time for Labour to somehow collapse the government, hold a general election, win it and then get another referendum through.

The EU will probably extend the deadline again if there is a GE or referendum, but there is no guarantee of that.

I do welcome Labour backing a further referendum, but this does appear to be more fudging and delaying.

It is at least a step in the right direction, a statement of intent. It is unlikely that the Tories will allow a GE to happen, ergo the de facto position for Labour will be the backing of a second referendum (they actually state this outcome either way). It will be very interesting to see what this does to their polling.

It’s a step in the right direction. But after 3 years they have only moved forward one step, when we need to travel thousands of miles.

The reality is we only need one step - cancel Brexit. One simple move that offers objectively the best outcome for the largest number of people. It should be strawberry floating simple.

But yes, the fact that so many people seem to be thousands of miles from realising this is genuinely depressing.

I totally get that we can’t just cancel it, politically speaking it would rip this country to shreds and give an extraordinary amount of ammunition to people like Farage.

The only way of ending this mess is via a referendum. And I don’t think a Labour Deal v Remain is going to solve things either, Farage and the Tories will scream betrayal and in a way they would be right.

It’s pretty clear that the Tory deal is dead and the EU are not prepared to renegotiate the mythical Labour deal. We’d have to have No Deal v Remain. Which is risky of course, but I think Remain would win comfortably.

I think trying to have a No deal vs Remain ref would be problematic, I can't see that option getting though parliament. Surely the Tories who support May's deal would vote it down and those who don't want a second ref would vote it down. I mean it might get through, but I'm not so sure.

I don’t think such a referendum would get through, but I think that is the only way of ending it.

There were a lot of flaws with the 2016 referendum, but one of the biggest was allowing it to go ahead without a clearly defined definition of what “Leave” meant. That allowed the liars and conmen to pretend to be all things to all people. They effortlessly switched from “Norway” to “WTO only” as they had no clear position in the first place. They should have been forced to write down exactly what Leaving meant.

If it won't get through, how will it end things?

I agree entirely that the first ref was deeply flawed.

[Moggy]

If it won't get through, how will it end things?

It won’t.

My point is that I think the only way it could all be ended is by having a “No Deal v Remain” referendum.

That doesn’t mean I think Parliament would do it. Which means this is going to drag on and on for at least a decade.

[captain red dog]

Too little too late from Corbyn in my opinion. I don't believe he will genuinely push for a second referendum. Too many times we have heard him make sounds towards a second ref, only to roll it back later on in the same day.

I also don't think he would actually campaign for remain.

[Errkal]

Too little too late from Corbyn in my opinion. I don't believe he will genuinely push for a second referendum. Too many times we have heard him make sounds towards a second ref, only to roll it back later on in the same day.

I also don't think he would actually campaign for remain.

He indeed won’t, this is a do a thing at the last second so once we are off cliff he can say “well I wanted to. Do x but couldn’t because of hem over there” it is a ploy to allow him a “it’s not my fault guv” argument in an election.

[Hexx]

twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1148539785193107457

Already the fudge gets fudgey! Now it's only a certain type of Tory Deal

A strawberry float off you useless old lying coot. There is NO DEAL that protects jobs and economy. It's just a slightly lesser shafting.

[Hexx]

I mean strawberry floating hell Labour fudge upon fudge

They're backing a confirmatory vote, that's good news, isn't it?

"We support Remain while we're in opposition, but Leave if we get into power"

[Tomous]

I mean strawberry floating hell Labour fudge upon fudge

They're backing a confirmatory vote, that's good news, isn't it?

"We support Remain while we're in opposition, but Leave if we get into power"

So the solution for Remain voters is to vote Tory so Labour stay as the opposition and support remain.

Bravo Jeremy, bravo.

[Hexx]

Part of them problem is their still lying about that their "deal" isn't still massively damaging and hide behind platitudes like "Job's First Brexit" or "Protects Jobs"

Vote for us! We'll only drive the country off a 100m cliff, not a 200m cliff is a terrible terrible position.

[Squinty]

Labour

[Drumstick]

Labour.

[Alvin Flummux]

What the actual strawberry float, Labour.

Bullshit leadership.

[Errkal]

What the actual strawberry float, Labour.

Bullshit leadership.

4D chess mate, you have to believe more, he knows what he is doing because is so smart, we can’t be expected to understand the great ones plan!

[BID0]

I've given up following Brexit these days but hasn't Labour's initial outline for their Brexit been seen by the EU and agreed to work in principle? It would be more like a Norway deal that would allow for access to the markets and workforce, thus protecting jobs?

Or did the Labour Brexit plan change since the EU looked at it?

And a referendum on that seems logical to me because like the Tory deal, no deal and every other favour of Brexit there as been (including remain), there is no majority in Parliament so it needs to be decided by a referendum.