Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain

Fed up talking videogames? Why?

GRpredicts: Will Brexit be delayed again?

Yes
70
62%
No
43
38%
 
Total votes: 113
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Return_of_the_STAR
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Return_of_the_STAR » Fri Feb 28, 2020 3:36 pm

Moggy wrote:
Return_of_the_STAR wrote:
Photek wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Return_of_the_STAR wrote:It’s okay because they won’t need the subsidies as our blossoming free market economy will allow trade to flourish in new markets that for some reason the government seem to think never existed when we were in the EU :fp:

Also serious question time. What’s the reason that the EU wouldn’t want the UK to have chlorinated chicken imported from the US? Is it fears that they could then be imported into the EU from the UK or is it because it will make the product cheaper than EU chickens? Or is it something else? I honestly don’t know.


I don’t think the EU really gives a gooseberry fool if we import rotten US chicken. They only care if it is ending up in their own territory. A border in the Irish sea should stop that, so I don’t think the EU will moan.

This. We don't care about your Chlorinated KFC, just don't want it over here.


This is what is confusing me. There are likely a lot of false reports about the EU refusing to do a deal unless we ban chlorinated chicken. If we end up with a proper boarder then I don't see why it would bother them as they just wouldn't allow it to be imported into the EU anyway as they already prevent it happening from other countries that accept chicken from the US that also have trade deals with the EU.


It would depend what the deal was. A full free trade deal that included meat would be off the table if Britain suddenly started copying the American system of rancid meat dipped in chorine.

Basically the EU will not accept lower American style standards. If we want a deal, then we will have to agree to keep standards high. If we go WTO only, then the EU will not give a gooseberry fool if we are eating crap, they just will not allow our disease ridden shite in their markets.


What I still don’t get though with the chicken as an example. Is the issue us importing chicken from the us to sell in our supermarkets or is it whether or not we start producing our own chlorinated chicken? Surely us buying chlorinated chicken wouldn’t lead to it then being sold on again to the eu via the uk as the import of it is banned. So why would they care if the uk Supermarkets have the option of buying both US and EU chicken and letting the customer decide which one it wants? And if we produce our own chickens that meet EU standards surely these can still be imported into the EU?

This also opens up another question surely we can produce products that reach different standards for different markets? Or will the eu not like that as they will have to do more checks on imported products to make sure they are actually getting the right ones. That would make sense and I assume that’s why they would only want to deal with a country that had the same standards so less checks are required.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Moggy » Fri Feb 28, 2020 3:40 pm

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Return_of_the_STAR wrote:
Photek wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Return_of_the_STAR wrote:It’s okay because they won’t need the subsidies as our blossoming free market economy will allow trade to flourish in new markets that for some reason the government seem to think never existed when we were in the EU :fp:

Also serious question time. What’s the reason that the EU wouldn’t want the UK to have chlorinated chicken imported from the US? Is it fears that they could then be imported into the EU from the UK or is it because it will make the product cheaper than EU chickens? Or is it something else? I honestly don’t know.


I don’t think the EU really gives a gooseberry fool if we import rotten US chicken. They only care if it is ending up in their own territory. A border in the Irish sea should stop that, so I don’t think the EU will moan.

This. We don't care about your Chlorinated KFC, just don't want it over here.


This is what is confusing me. There are likely a lot of false reports about the EU refusing to do a deal unless we ban chlorinated chicken. If we end up with a proper boarder then I don't see why it would bother them as they just wouldn't allow it to be imported into the EU anyway as they already prevent it happening from other countries that accept chicken from the US that also have trade deals with the EU.


It would depend what the deal was. A full free trade deal that included meat would be off the table if Britain suddenly started copying the American system of rancid meat dipped in chorine.

Basically the EU will not accept lower American style standards. If we want a deal, then we will have to agree to keep standards high. If we go WTO only, then the EU will not give a gooseberry fool if we are eating crap, they just will not allow our disease ridden shite in their markets.


What I still don’t get though with the chicken as an example. Is the issue us importing chicken from the us to sell in our supermarkets or is it whether or not we start producing our own chlorinated chicken? Surely us buying chlorinated chicken wouldn’t lead to it then being sold on again to the eu via the uk as the import of it is banned. So why would they care if the uk Supermarkets have the option of buying both US and EU chicken and letting the customer decide which one it wants? And if we produce our own chickens that meet EU standards surely these can still be imported into the EU?

This also opens up another question surely we can produce products that reach different standards for different markets? Or will the eu not like that as they will have to do more checks on imported products to make sure they are actually getting the right ones. That would make sense and I assume that’s why they would only want to deal with a country that had the same standards so less checks are required.


If we pass legislation to lower our food standards to the US level, then our food will be of a standard that the EU will not accept.

Some food producers may still keep their standards high, but the EU are not going to want to deal with deciding which slaughterhouse is clean and which is rancid. If the legislation lowers standards, it’s reasonable to assume that standards would drop.

This is how trade deals work. There is always an element of surrendering sovereignty in order to get the deal that you want. If you are the big boy on the block, then you don’t have to change your rules to get a deal through, it’s the little boy that has to compromise and do what they are told.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Preezy » Fri Feb 28, 2020 3:49 pm

Isn't the whole chlorinated chicken thing more a question of animal welfare than the potential for getting ill from bad chicken? As I (incorrectly?) understand it, chlorinating chicken is a very effective method of cleaning chicken before it gets packaged for the shops, but it's so effective that it means that farms don't have to keep the conditions that the chickens live in to as high a standard as we do in the EU. The chicken itself is completely normal to eat, no different to what you'd get in Tesco now.

If wrong please chlorinate my brain.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Hexx » Fri Feb 28, 2020 3:52 pm

Preezy wrote:Isn't the whole chlorinated chicken thing more a question of animal welfare than the potential for getting ill from bad chicken? As I (incorrectly?) understand it, chlorinating chicken is a very effective method of cleaning chicken before it gets packaged for the shops, but it's so effective that it means that farms don't have to keep the conditions that the chickens live in to as high a standard as we do in the EU. The chicken itself is completely normal to eat, no different to what you'd get in Tesco now.

If wrong please chlorinate my brain.


I think there's a slight worry about increase in carcinogenics.

It's not just animal welfare - but food/safety standards at every point. Having to chlorine wash Chicken at the end to make it safe doesn't inspire confidence in what happened before that

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Moggy » Fri Feb 28, 2020 3:54 pm

Preezy wrote:Isn't the whole chlorinated chicken thing more a question of animal welfare than the potential for getting ill from bad chicken? As I (incorrectly?) understand it, chlorinating chicken is a very effective method of cleaning chicken before it gets packaged for the shops, but it's so effective that it means that farms don't have to keep the conditions that the chickens live in to as high a standard as we do in the EU. The chicken itself is completely normal to eat, no different to what you'd get in Tesco now.

If wrong please chlorinate my brain.


Yes and no. Animal welfare standards are one thing, but the chlorine wash is used to cover up/kill the diseases lurking in the meat. It is supposed to kill off the bugs that are there through lower farming standards.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by OrangeRKN » Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:01 pm

Return_of_the_STAR wrote:...the uk Supermarkets have the option of buying both US and EU chicken and letting the customer decide which one it wants?


Not the point being made, I know, but this is such a rubbish argument that people bring up. For one, that choice won't exist for a lot of products. When buying fresh meat it probably will, but what about ready meals, the chicken on pre-made pizzas, or the chicken you buy in a fast food restaurant? These are likely going to be whatever is cheapest, and the end consumer won't have any choice if they want those products.

Even when consumers do have the choice though, people will buy the US option even if they are against it. This could be for the price (being poor is a great motivator to compromise on other values), or it could be because they don't want to put in the effort of vetting everything they buy from the supermarket - entirely reasonable positions to hold. People buying a product isn't proof that they agree with its methods of production. People make lots of very reasonable assumptions about the quality of something they are buying, and it's unreasonable to put the onus on the consumer to check every aspect of what they are buying.

Then there is the supposition that it's even okay for the market to decide this sort of thing! Animal welfare is something that should be legislated on and enforced, not decided by market pressures. We don't let the market decide whether it's okay for people to be used as slave labour on farms by putting slave-grown products up for sale against more expensive products made by farmers who get paid - we just ban slavery outright.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by OrangeRKN » Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:09 pm

Preezy wrote:Isn't the whole chlorinated chicken thing more a question of animal welfare than the potential for getting ill from bad chicken? As I (incorrectly?) understand it, chlorinating chicken is a very effective method of cleaning chicken before it gets packaged for the shops, but it's so effective that it means that farms don't have to keep the conditions that the chickens live in to as high a standard as we do in the EU. The chicken itself is completely normal to eat, no different to what you'd get in Tesco now.

If wrong please chlorinate my brain.


Correct, chlorine is an effective method of treating chicken. Chicken from the US is generally safe to eat - this is pretty self-evident from how people eat chicken in the US all the time, including British citizens traveling there. Opponents imply a health risk as an argument because it gets the general public worried, but it's not a particularly good argument to make as it gives the US negotiators space to argue - it's notable how they will always stress the "our chicken is safe" angle. It' shouldn't be about safety or health concerns, it should be about about animal welfare. US standards are unarguably much worse when it comes to that issue. Animal welfare should be of great importance.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Moggy » Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:21 pm

OrangeRKN wrote:
Preezy wrote:Isn't the whole chlorinated chicken thing more a question of animal welfare than the potential for getting ill from bad chicken? As I (incorrectly?) understand it, chlorinating chicken is a very effective method of cleaning chicken before it gets packaged for the shops, but it's so effective that it means that farms don't have to keep the conditions that the chickens live in to as high a standard as we do in the EU. The chicken itself is completely normal to eat, no different to what you'd get in Tesco now.

If wrong please chlorinate my brain.


Correct, chlorine is an effective method of treating chicken. Chicken from the US is generally safe to eat - this is pretty self-evident from how people eat chicken in the US all the time, including British citizens traveling there. Opponents imply a health risk as an argument because it gets the general public worried, but it's not a particularly good argument to make as it gives the US negotiators space to argue - it's notable how they will always stress the "our chicken is safe" angle. It' shouldn't be about safety or health concerns, it should be about about animal welfare. US standards are unarguably much worse when it comes to that issue. Animal welfare should be of great importance.


48 million people get food poisoning every year in the US.

https://www.cdc.gov/foodborneburden/est ... rview.html

You’re right that people use chlorinated chicken to worry people, but it’s never a good thing to lower standards.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Preezy » Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:25 pm

Just seen footage of Moggy looking for a stat to back up his argument

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by OrangeRKN » Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:29 pm

That food poisoning stat is almost meaningless. There is a potential for US chicken to cause more health issues but conclusive evidence is somewhat lacking either way - the point I am trying to make is that the primary debate should be over animal welfare, which is much more obviously different and well documented. The US negotiators have very little they can come back on there other than admitting "we don't care so much about the animals"

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Jenuall » Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:32 pm

Chlorinated chicken is probably low on the list of factors that cause high rates of food poisoning in the US. Some of their other food "standards" are appalling. The FDA has all sorts of rules that permit certain levels of foreign elements (maggots, hairs, insects fragments etc.) to be present in food per a certain volume. :dread:


EDIT: But yes as noted above, lets not get away from the fact that welfare is a huge concern regarding US standards.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Moggy » Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:17 am



I hope you all had a patriotic breakfast this morning. If not, strawberry float off out of this country traitors. :x

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Rex Kramer » Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:27 am

I wonder if Cummings Boris has banned croissants?

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Squinty
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Squinty » Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:44 am

Everyone on twitter losing their minds about strawberry floating breakfast over the past two days.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Moggy » Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:48 am

Squinty wrote:Everyone on twitter losing their minds about strawberry floating breakfast over the past two days.


We call it Freedom Breakfast now. If you refuse to eat a patriotic breakfast, why don’t you just go live in China?

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Squinty » Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:49 am

Moggy wrote:
Squinty wrote:Everyone on twitter losing their minds about strawberry floating breakfast over the past two days.


We call it Freedom Breakfast now. If you refuse to eat a patriotic breakfast, why don’t you just go live in China?


Wouldn't be so bad I guess. If I get homesick, I could read everyone's WhatsApp messages.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Dual » Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:08 am

Boris Brexit British Breakfast

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Lex-Man » Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:09 am

OrangeRKN wrote:That food poisoning stat is almost meaningless. There is a potential for US chicken to cause more health issues but conclusive evidence is somewhat lacking either way - the point I am trying to make is that the primary debate should be over animal welfare, which is much more obviously different and well documented. The US negotiators have very little they can come back on there other than admitting "we don't care so much about the animals"


It's not the chlorine though. Chlorine washed chicken serves as a visual way to talk demonstrate a host of problems with US food standards. It's used to cover up poor food standards, US chicken had a lot more salmonella than the EU stuff, so do their eggs. Restaurant kitchens are generally less clean dientona lack of health inspections, etc. There rate of food poisoning is three times ours. Also US life expectancy is lower than ours, I'd argue that the lower food standards are a contributing factor.

Having been to the US numerous times I've also found that I get some form of gastroenterology problem when I go there. I have a weak digestive system and think that I would have to look at leaving the country if we did match US standards.

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Moggy
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Moggy » Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:28 am



Offended by kids TV and finding out who invented sausages. But we’re the snowflakes. :lol:

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Preezy » Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:46 am

Moggy wrote:


I hope you all had a patriotic breakfast this morning. If not, strawberry float off out of this country traitors. :x


Is this what counts as journalism now? Embarrassing.

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