Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain

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GRpredicts: Will Brexit be delayed again?

Yes
71
60%
No
48
40%
 
Total votes: 119
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Karl_
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Karl_ » Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:52 am

Moggy wrote:
Karl_ wrote:Hypothetically, in a totally different timeline, a far-left government would have to take us out of the EU to do cool far-left stuff like, I dunno, nationalising all housing. But Brexit is never going to be that. It's always been the opposite - a far-right project with explicitly far-right goals. You can't coherently support Brexit as it exists in reality from the left because it is inherently right-wing.

Yep.

And even in a Britain that was a left wing paradise, I'd still want us to be in the EU, cooperating with our neighbours, enjoying free movement and welcoming other people's into Britain.

A UK at the heart of Europe dragging it further left is better than any of the alternatives.

Sure. I think if we were at the point of debating whether to leave the EU in order to move further left then I would (probably, but it depends on what the plans would be!) support leaving it at that point. But that debate would be entirely different to the Brexit debate. In that alternate reality, in order to have that conversation, the UK would already be the furthest-left country in Europe. My blood pressure would certainly be a lot lower whichever way it went.

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Rex Kramer
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Rex Kramer » Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:55 am

I think we have to accept that the UK isn't, and probably will never be, a left wing country.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Lex-Man » Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:00 am

I do think there is some chance what Johnson is doing will end up creating Karl's leftist paradise. Probably around the same chance of Johnson being PM at the next election but still some chance.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Moggy » Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:27 am

Lex-Man wrote:I do think there is some chance what Johnson is doing will end up creating Karl's leftist paradise. Probably around the same chance of Johnson being PM at the next election but still some chance.


Not a chance. This country has always been right wing and nothing is going to change it.

There hasn't been a properly left wing government in the last 40-50 years. Blair had to drag Labour to the centre in order to win an election.

I don't think Johnson will last too long as Tory leader/PM. But he isn't going to be replaced by anybody better and a particularly left wing government isn't going to win the next election.

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Tomous
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Tomous » Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:42 am

Lex-Man wrote:I do think there is some chance what Johnson is doing will end up creating Karl's leftist paradise. Probably around the same chance of Johnson being PM at the next election but still some chance.




Not with the media in this country.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Photek » Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:45 am

Moggy wrote:
Lex-Man wrote:I do think there is some chance what Johnson is doing will end up creating Karl's leftist paradise. Probably around the same chance of Johnson being PM at the next election but still some chance.


Not a chance. This country has always been right wing and nothing is going to change it.


If we can get over the troubles, one of the most corrupt governments in Europe and the church being part of the state with draconian anti Women/Gay laws and become a left leaning, secular lead society standing on tent poles of Human Rights for all, Pro Immigration and being Pro European then, honestly, anything's possible.

Trust me on this as I've lived through a political and social upheaval which still makes me wonder how the F*** we did it tbh. Don't give up.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Jenuall » Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:47 am

The view of those who currently hold the power and wealth in this country is that they have nothing to gain and everything to lose from a left wing government.

Only people who don't count or aren't important stand to get anything from it so obviously it will never happen. :cry:

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Moggy » Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:48 am

Photek wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Lex-Man wrote:I do think there is some chance what Johnson is doing will end up creating Karl's leftist paradise. Probably around the same chance of Johnson being PM at the next election but still some chance.


Not a chance. This country has always been right wing and nothing is going to change it.


If we can get over the troubles, one of the most corrupt governments in Europe and the church being part of the state with draconian anti Women/Gay laws and become a left leaning, secular lead society standing on tent poles of Human Rights for all, Pro Immigration and being Pro European then, honestly, anything's possible.

Trust me on this as I've lived through a political and social upheaval which still makes me wonder how the F*** we did it tbh. Don't give up.


True.

Maybe in 30 years and after thousands have died we might get another centre left government.

;)

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Photek » Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:57 am

Moggy wrote:
Photek wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Lex-Man wrote:I do think there is some chance what Johnson is doing will end up creating Karl's leftist paradise. Probably around the same chance of Johnson being PM at the next election but still some chance.


Not a chance. This country has always been right wing and nothing is going to change it.


If we can get over the troubles, one of the most corrupt governments in Europe and the church being part of the state with draconian anti Women/Gay laws and become a left leaning, secular lead society standing on tent poles of Human Rights for all, Pro Immigration and being Pro European then, honestly, anything's possible.

Trust me on this as I've lived through a political and social upheaval which still makes me wonder how the F*** we did it tbh. Don't give up.


True.

Maybe in 30 years and after thousands have died we might get another centre left government.

;)

Most of the change happened in past 15 years, 20 max.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Lex-Man » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:01 pm

I'm more thinking along the lines of a combination of the police and army being run down and Brexit causing food shortages to create a situation where the government becomes ungovernable, leading to some kind of revolution.

We're fairly likely to see riots early next year, but I think the country should be able to hold itself together so I don't think it's that likely but it's on the table.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Moggy » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:03 pm

Photek wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Photek wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Lex-Man wrote:I do think there is some chance what Johnson is doing will end up creating Karl's leftist paradise. Probably around the same chance of Johnson being PM at the next election but still some chance.


Not a chance. This country has always been right wing and nothing is going to change it.


If we can get over the troubles, one of the most corrupt governments in Europe and the church being part of the state with draconian anti Women/Gay laws and become a left leaning, secular lead society standing on tent poles of Human Rights for all, Pro Immigration and being Pro European then, honestly, anything's possible.

Trust me on this as I've lived through a political and social upheaval which still makes me wonder how the F*** we did it tbh. Don't give up.


True.

Maybe in 30 years and after thousands have died we might get another centre left government.

;)

Most of the change happened in past 15 years, 20 max.


I was talking about the Troubles.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Hypes » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:10 pm

Moggy wrote:
Lex-Man wrote:I do think there is some chance what Johnson is doing will end up creating Karl's leftist paradise. Probably around the same chance of Johnson being PM at the next election but still some chance.


Not a chance. This country has always been right wing and nothing is going to change it.

There hasn't been a properly left wing government in the last 40-50 years. Blair had to drag Labour to the centre in order to win an election.

I don't think Johnson will last too long as Tory leader/PM. But he isn't going to be replaced by anybody better and a particularly left wing government isn't going to win the next election.


We nearly fluked a left wing government in 2017 but the chances of one any time soon seem slim.
Electoral reform is needed for the fractured left in this country to have a hope of influence.
You would hope the continued reduced circulation of the Mail and the rag would reduce their influence but that'll be replaced by MailOnline and Fox news style channels
Maybe in another 130 years this country might have finally moved on from WW2 and stop seeing ourselves as an exception but who knows

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Moggy » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:12 pm

Hypes wrote:
Moggy wrote:
Lex-Man wrote:I do think there is some chance what Johnson is doing will end up creating Karl's leftist paradise. Probably around the same chance of Johnson being PM at the next election but still some chance.


Not a chance. This country has always been right wing and nothing is going to change it.

There hasn't been a properly left wing government in the last 40-50 years. Blair had to drag Labour to the centre in order to win an election.

I don't think Johnson will last too long as Tory leader/PM. But he isn't going to be replaced by anybody better and a particularly left wing government isn't going to win the next election.


We nearly fluked a left wing government in 2017 but the chances of one any time soon seem slim.
Electoral reform is needed for the fractured left in this country to have a hope of influence.
You would hope the continued reduced circulation of the Mail and the rag would reduce their influence but that'll be replaced by MailOnline and Fox news style channels
Maybe in another 130 years this country might have finally moved on from WW2 and stop seeing ourselves as an exception but who knows


We were miles off a left wing government in 2017.

317 Tory seats v 262 Labour seats.

The Sun, Mail etc will drop off. But we have Facebook to take over and that's even worse and far more unregulated than the right wing rags could ever be.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Moggy » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:39 pm



Would be amazing if Johnson destroyed his own majority.

Again.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Cuttooth » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:45 pm

Abstention isn't enough.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Lex-Man » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:53 pm

Well there goes my theory that Johnson wanted to lose the vote. It'd be funny if we ended up with a Labour coalition government next week because Johnson threw a hissy fit though.

EDIT:

Although I'm slightly worried that this will lead to another election where Johnson is able to deselect more Tories and replace them with more sycophants. What has the world come to when I'm worried that May might be replaced by somebody even worse.

Last edited by Lex-Man on Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Lex-Man » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:57 pm



Sounds about right.

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Victor Mildew » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:57 pm

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Tomous
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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dream is Dead, RIP Remain
by Tomous » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:58 pm

Lex-Man wrote:Well there goes my theory that Johnson wanted to lose the vote. It'd be funny if we ended up with a Labour coalition government next week because Johnson threw a hissy fit though.



Can you imagine :lol:

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PostRe: Brexit Thread 3 - The Dreham is Dead, RIP Remain
by Dual » Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:03 pm

Keir Starmer won't be at the debate today he's self isolating.


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